The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#361

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:23 PM UTC

wayneftw wrote: post #355

scarface74 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like in consoles for the past thirty years? Why is it the government’s responsibility to stop you from buying a device that doesn’t fit your needs when you had an option.

You seem to be stuck on continually making the point that if something hasn’t happened already that it should never happen. Phones are a lot more important than consoles but, if a law doesn’t exist let’s make one that applies to both phones and consoles. This is our country. If Apple doesn’t like it they can go do business somewhere else.

Right because giving the government more power can’t possibly have negative consequences. Did you watch the congressional testimony a few days ago? Would you trust this government to pass laws with regards to tech?

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#362

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:23 PM UTC

dcbadacd wrote: post #350

scarface74 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you support Apple and Google in their claims to 30% of the profit, then you support Comcast charging an additional fee for Netflix. And guess what? I don’t have to use Comcast.

> And guess what? I don’t have to use Comcast. Pretending everyone has that choice not to.

They definitely don’t have to buy Netflix through Comcast.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#363

Post by wayneftw » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:24 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #343

627467 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you buy an apple product you lose freedoms others have. So, while no one forces me to buy from apple, once I buy apple I'm forced to buy only what apple sees fit.

And once I buy a Tesla I can’t buy gas like most others can. Whose fault is it that you made a choice that doesn’t fit your needs?

If electric cars become as popular as smart phones that will change too.

Just because 2 bad actors exist doesn’t mean we can’t stop them.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#364

Post by 627467 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:24 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #341

627467 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by anybody you include their own customers... Yes. The case here is driven mostly by Spotify who claim (my paraphrasing) they cannot benefit Apple customers equaly because of Apple restrictive practices and fee model. You may not have purchased a Apple device with intention to use with Spotify, but others may. (Now extrapolate the Spotify story to any appmaker who wish to sell to Apple customers)

Spotify in fact doesn’t go through the App Store for purchases. The better question is why hasn’t Spotify made a decent watch app that can stream directly to it and download music for off line use? Apple added the ability last year. How much of a cut does Spotify take from musicians to be on its platform?

And Spotify may well be target of investigation one day. They are also in the monopolistic platform business model.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#365

Post by matsemann » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:25 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #185

matsemann wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an issue for Spotify vs Apple Music for instance. Apple wants a cut of Spotify's fee, and also had APIs for Apple Watch etc only they themselves could use.

Spotify never implemented those APIs. There were other apps e.g. Podcast ones that used it.

They did, Apple just rejected their app... https://www.timetoplayfair.com/timeline/

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#366

Post by 627467 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:26 PM UTC

nodamage wrote: post #339

627467 wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another poster already mentioned that legal definition varies. And not only that. It's not that it's "wrong" or illegal to be a monopoly. It's what you do with those powers. Natural (and legal) monopolies exist and are regulated so that there's a perceived net benefit to society for having them. The EU will investigate is (to Europeans) Apple's monopoly is net beneficial to them. And I imply to agree with labeling Ap…

> And I imply to agree with labeling Apple a monopoly precisely because, unlike the gas station on your example, a iPhone user cannot drive 3 miles to buy Spotify without having to pay Apple's 30% fee. They can choose a non-Apple phone. There is an alternative product on the market.

That is not what the case is about. The case is about Spotify not having fair access to Apple customers.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#367

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:26 PM UTC

wayneftw wrote: post #329

scarface74 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do console makers have to follow “very strict rules”.

If we make some laws that say they do then yeah they will have to.

And Tesla? Will they also have to allow third parties to “upgrade” their cars since many of the additional features are software controlled? Why stop there? Kindles? Roku sticks? WebOS TVs? TiVo’s? Cable boxes?

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#368

Post by AnthonyMouse » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:26 PM UTC

beached_whale wrote: post #266

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like someone will force you paying without your consent. If you don't want to give random apps your credit card, don't give it to them. Why do you oppose other people's right to do that, if they need it?

Most people are naive about how applications will coerce them into doing things against their best interest when given the ability, such as a request while installing, requesting access to parts of the system that reveal PII. Most people do not have the knowledge to evaluate how these things play out. Apple via the app store at least does some work to mitigate this and when they do fail, are able to fix it.

You are making the case for the app store to exist, not for it to have no competitors.

Let's suppose that Apple's store is infallible. Well then the availability of other stores won't matter, will it? Apple will approve everything good and reject everything bad and you'll know that anything not in their store is bad and have no reason to ever look at another store even if they exist.

But suppose they're not infallible. They reject something good when they ought not to. Well now you gain something from the other store, because now you have the option to install it anyway. You don't have to -- you only would if the other store has a sufficient reputation for not distributing bad things -- but you could. Or you could still continue to refuse anything not in Apple's store. It only gives you a choice.

And the existence of the choice creates competitive pressure. It makes it in Apple's interest to do a better job for you, because they don't want customers turning to other stores because they've rejected something they shouldn't have, or because they're charging monopoly rents to developers etc. So they spend more resources to reject only what's bad and not what's good. They charge lower fees, so that more money goes to developers and you get better apps. And then even if you still don't want to use the other stores, their existence makes Apple's store better for you.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#369

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:27 PM UTC

627467 wrote: post #358

scarface74 wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And once I buy a Tesla I can’t buy gas like most others can. Whose fault is it that you made a choice that doesn’t fit your needs?

Being creative with our analogies? Does Tesla contractually prevents you from buying gas?

When you buy a Tesla you know you can’t go to a gas station. Is it the governments responsibility to keep you from buying a device that didn’t meet your needs?

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#370

Post by Apocryphon » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:27 PM UTC

moralsupply wrote: post #305

Apocryphon wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that breaking up a major power leads to increased competition, it’s arguably more capitalistic and market-efficient.

Definitely not. Any government interference in the market will lead to distortions and malinvestments, not "increased competition" -- unless you believe that giving unfair advantages to Apple competitors is acceptable by any standards, and that this would lead to a more efficient market. Apple made its brand and has a loyal customer base due to the quality of the products it delivers, therefore it's providing what th…

> Any government interference in the market will lead to distortions and malinvestments, not "increased competition" --

This brand of laissez-faire sentimentalism is very predictable, but it is neither here nor there.

> unless you believe that giving unfair advantages to Apple competitors is acceptable by any standards, and that this would lead to a more efficient market.

Given that Apple's control of its platform comes with forcing of 30% fees on its competitors (such as ProtonMail, the OP), it would be less giving advantages to other competitors, than refusing unfair advantages that Apple itself has exploited and enjoyed under the current state of affairs.

> Apple made its brand and has a loyal customer base due to the quality of the products it delivers, therefore it's providing what the market wants.

Then it should rest its laurels on the quality of its products and not on restrictive anti-competitive behavior levied upon its competitors. After all the App Store would be nothing without 3rd party developers, and the world in which Steve Jobs had chosen to never open up the platform to such developers would be a much barer one indeed.