The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#281

Post by bhupy » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:27 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #264

bhupy wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are thousands of powerful smartphones on the market, from many different companies and even countries. There are only 2 major OS's.

And doesn't one of them allow your own apps? So why don't you use that one if that's what you prefer?

I understand that, but your original argument was disingenuous.

The central question at hand is the App Store monopoly, and your argument was:

> There are thousands of powerful smartphones on the market, from many different companies and even countries.

But that number willfully misrepresents the current state of the market as it pertains to the current discussion because all but one of those powerful smartphones only operate on one other OS, and by extension, one other App Store regime.

Whether this OS duopoly is acceptable is the whole debate.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#282

Post by 627467 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC

gramakri wrote: post #179

skuthus wrote: post #87

If you purchase the hardware for the product, no company should be able to stop you from installing whatever you like on the product.

Yeah, I very much side by this view. It's not coming from a monopoly standpoint but from a ownership standpoint. I bought something, so artificial barriers to installing/tinkering with it must be removed.

All barriers in this case can only be artificial. Think of the court case where FBI tried to make Apple develop software to their specs: it's hard to justify this order even though it seemed like it had legal standing.

Apple doesn't have to develop what you want them to develop. But it could be in their interest to avoid being labeled as an abusive monopolistic power. In won't make them any less abusive or monopolistic, but it knocks out some detractors.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#283

Post by 627467 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:31 PM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #118

The local cinema has an exclusive right on selling popcorn within its own walls. Far from being the only game in town, this cinema represents only 25% of the market and thus does not qualify for the Sherman Act definition of "monopoly". Punters, however, believe that once they enter the establishment they are now in the clutches of the monopoly, and so demand competing popcorn stands and reject the suggestion of walk…

How is any of this relevant to "EU" as seen in title?

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#284

Post by falcolas » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:32 PM UTC

oscargrouch wrote: post #234

chrisseaton wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go to a a McDonalds and get upset that you can't buy Pepsi, you're unreasonable. If you buy an iPhone and get upset that you can't install your own apps, you're unreasonable.

The MacDonalds its not yours, while your iPhone is. There's a big difference between the two, and the key difference here is ... Property. But i like your example because its shows the mindset that the iPhone you bought, is in the end the property of Apple, not really yours, and that you are "fine with it".

Your iPhone OS is not yours. It’s an unfortunate thing, the way that licensing works, but that’s how it is.

A more apt analogy is perhaps that you’re a McDonalds franchise owner, and you can’t serve Subway food there.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#285

Post by diego_moita » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:32 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #207

diego_moita wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but I don't understand the point. No one is talking about taking away your choice of keep using the Apple appstore. It is ok to keep using Apple, if you prefer so. We wan't choices, we don't want to remove your choice.

What if I choose not to be forced to deal with a multitude of different stores? It seems like you want to remove that choice.

> It seems like you want to remove that choice.

The choice of not choosing? The more you guys explain, the less I understand.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#286

Post by d1zzy » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:32 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #93

coldtea wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody forces anybody to buy an Apple product... In fact, Apple charges more, so it makes it even more difficult to buy them than an Android phone -- which also has multiple app install options. Why not use that?

From a practical point of view, if you're a developer and you don't target iOS you're going to lose. It's a duopoly and Apple really controls the affluent segment (ie the users willing to buy apps or pay for in-app services) pretty strongly. And the user base is very sticky. If some big app owner like Facebook or AirBnb came out and said "We're only supporting Android now, so please switch phones to use our service"…

So Apple created a very desirable platform for developers by enforcing a set of "arbitrary" rules and being in complete control of it. Now developers want Apple to open up those rules. That seems contradictory to me.

Now, don't get me wrong, as a consumer I do want to _own_ my device and have the freedom to do anything with it, even if I never exercise that freedom. And as a consumer I use my right to vote with my wallet by never purchasing iPhones and explain my decision to anyone that cares to listen. But in no way does that mean that I think what Apple is doing is wrong or illegal nor do I think they should be forced to change their business model because some people think they can have the cake and eat it too.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#287

Post by admax88q » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

wlesieutre wrote: post #246

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like someone will force you paying without your consent. If you don't want to give random apps your credit card, don't give it to them. Why do you oppose other people's right to do that, if they need it?

Beyond the security of not giving our credit cards, and the convenience of not having 8 different game updater/launcher clients, Apple’s App Store policies also limit 3rd party software’s ability to fuck up my devices in a myriad of ways. If they’re forced to open up to 3rd party stores, I hope they can do it in a way that prevents Adobe from running 8 background processes to make sure my license is current and there…

An operating system that actually empowered you would give you the tools and options to prevent that, while also letting you run whatever software you desired.

I will never understand people's desire to be handcuffed by Apple. Give me control over my own device god damn it.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#288

Post by diego_moita » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #22

I applaud this. The manufacturer of the device must not control what apps I run on after buying it. Third-party appstores and app sideloading is a must. (And do not forget third party push-notifications, iOS devices are next to useless without them)

> The manufacturer of the device must not control what apps I run on after buying it.

Exactly. As much as a car manufacturer shouldn't force you to buy only their gas, oil, tires or batteries.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#289

Post by raz32dust » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:44 PM UTC

albertop wrote: post #227

raz32dust wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Everything Apple is doing is helping make a better app store for me." - it is the benevolent dictator fallacy[1]. You cannot say dictatorship is good because one dictator seems to have done good things. In the same way, just because Apple has been nice so far (in you opinion at least) doesn't mean that the practice itself is good. [1] Don't google it. I made it up.

It is free market not dictatorship.

Quoting from the article, "Apple attempts to justify these fees by arguing that the App Store is no different from a mall, where companies seeking to offer their products must pay rent to the owner of the mall (in this case, Apple). This argument conveniently ignores the fact that there is just a single mall when it comes to iOS and no possibility of a competing mall to rent space from. It is not illegal for Apple to own a mall and rent space, nor is it illegal for Apple to own the only mall. What is illegal, is exploiting the fact that it owns the only mall to charge excessively high pricing which harms competitors."

This is a recurring theme here on HN. The fundamental dilemma is whether or not it is a monopoly. The article is arguing that it is.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#290

Post by cyrksoft » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:47 PM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #38

spullara wrote: post #9

As a consumer, I am 100% in favor of the way run the app store. I don't want to give random apps my credit card. I don't want to have 18 accounts to keep track of. I don't want to have to call telephone support to cancel my account. I don't want malware in my apps. I don't want apps to have my email if they don't need it. I don't need another middleman for content companies license and distribute. Everything Apple is…

It's not like someone will force you paying without your consent. If you don't want to give random apps your credit card, don't give it to them. Why do you oppose other people's right to do that, if they need it?

The same could be said the other way around. Why force a private company to open its system? Apple built the entire ecosystem and you want to force them to open it up to your desire. Why is that ok?