The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#181

Post by threeseed » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

kennydude wrote: post #123

Some of the arguments here reminds me of "Unauthorized Bread" ( https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-... ) where, take a fridge. Why would any fridge be allowed to not accept certain brands of milk? But, it is the manufacturer's product and right to do so right?

You mean like how I can only play Sony approved games on a Playstation, install Tesla approved apps on a Tesla, watch TV shows that a cable company has approved etc. The standard for most products that have addons since the beginning of time.

Forcing companies to build an open ecosystem around every feature is a pretty unprecedented and unworkable concept.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#182

Post by xvector » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

i5heu wrote: post #91

coldtea wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody forces anybody to buy an Apple product... In fact, Apple charges more, so it makes it even more difficult to buy them than an Android phone -- which also has multiple app install options. Why not use that?

I must have a smartphone. Android is not usable because of the lack of privacy. So I am forced to use an iPhone. Regulation is necessary in Oligopolys.

Just because the product you want doesn't exist doesn't mean you can force companies into making it.

You can, on the other hand, support businesses or communities that are.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#183

Post by throwaway6000 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #18

spullara wrote: post #9

As a consumer, I am 100% in favor of the way run the app store. I don't want to give random apps my credit card. I don't want to have 18 accounts to keep track of. I don't want to have to call telephone support to cancel my account. I don't want malware in my apps. I don't want apps to have my email if they don't need it. I don't need another middleman for content companies license and distribute. Everything Apple is…

The problem isn't how they run their store -- the problem is that they are the only store.

they're not the only store. and nobody's forcing you to use their store. go get an Android phone.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#184

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

mathieuh wrote: post #65

behnamoh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's their product and they can do whatever they want with it. If anyone doesn't like that, they can easily not purchase iDevices. Apple doesn't force people to buy their products.

Microsoft didn't force people to buy Windows, "all" they did was install IE by default and they got done for that. Precedent disagrees with you.

[deleted]

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#185

Post by threeseed » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #153

CivilianZero wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how often this has actually occurred in the App Store? I can't think of too many apps that Apple has released that have many competitors. Sure, there are the built in apps (which you can remove) but I certainly haven't seen any lack of To Do or weather apps on the App Store.

It's an issue for Spotify vs Apple Music for instance. Apple wants a cut of Spotify's fee, and also had APIs for Apple Watch etc only they themselves could use.

Spotify never implemented those APIs.

There were other apps e.g. Podcast ones that used it.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#186

Post by simonh » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #20

simonh wrote: post #12

The only monopoly here is Apple’s monopoly on designing its own products. The iPhone, iOS, it’s development tools and the App Store are all Apple products, so Apple gets to decide what features they have. It’s also not unusual for companies to make deals with third parties to include their technology and software in their products, often as optional chargeable extras. That’s all the App Store is, it’s a way to add op…

If the government forces a platform open and hands it over to a consortium of industry leaders, as well as associations of independent developers and open source foundations... sure why not?

So the reward for developing a successful valuable product that hundreds of millions of people like and trust, is to take it away and give it to somebody else? Wow.

If that consortium is so great, why don’t they just make their own product. Let the public decide what they want.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#187

Post by chrisseaton » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

skuthus wrote: post #24

spullara wrote: post #9

As a consumer, I am 100% in favor of the way run the app store. I don't want to give random apps my credit card. I don't want to have 18 accounts to keep track of. I don't want to have to call telephone support to cancel my account. I don't want malware in my apps. I don't want apps to have my email if they don't need it. I don't need another middleman for content companies license and distribute. Everything Apple is…

You can still have what you want and give people other options. It's called choice. We deserve to be able to choose

> We deserve to be able to choose

People at Apple choose not to spend their time, money, and energy on supporting third-party app stores.

You can choose to do whatever you want. But you can't force people at Apple to choose to do something.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#188

Post by yladiz » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

gramakri wrote: post #168

scarface74 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Apple didn’t force you to buy the phone....

Isn't this an argument against any company/monopoly? No company forced anyone to buy anything.

This argument only works if there is sufficient competition. I would say that Apple has enough competition to agree with the argument that "you don't have to buy an iPhone".

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#189

Post by moralsupply » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

inopinatus wrote: post #156

moralsupply wrote: post #7

The article states that Apple is extorting users. Is Apple forcing anybody to use their services?

Yes. Apple's rules oblige app vendors to not advertise or link to any external method of signing up for a service. So, not only can you can only use Apple's payment methods, but you have to lie (by omission) to consumers about their options. This is the market distortion of the App Store.

> Apple's rules oblige app vendors

The rules only oblige app vendors if they agree with that contract. Users also only engage in doing business with Apple on a voluntary basis. That's not extortion, by definition.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#190

Post by oscargrouch » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

spullara wrote: post #9

As a consumer, I am 100% in favor of the way run the app store. I don't want to give random apps my credit card. I don't want to have 18 accounts to keep track of. I don't want to have to call telephone support to cancel my account. I don't want malware in my apps. I don't want apps to have my email if they don't need it. I don't need another middleman for content companies license and distribute. Everything Apple is…

I think you are missing the social and political implications of your choices.

Its not just about being a monopoly in the economical sense, which is bad per-se, but to let a private company to control what you have access or not based on particular moral, political views.

To forbid you to access technology that can compete with what they offer on the basis of "security".

If you do not get it, they control the only app store allowed where they also control what you can or cannot access to. You are implying they are good actors somehow that are doing all this thinking on you, while in reality they will do whatever they can to maximize their profits, and as long as people like you are fine with it, nothing will change.

Your current government might yet be democratic enough as this can not YET represent a threat to your civil rights or the ones you love, but things changes constantly. (Who could have predicted that the 30's Weimar Republic Germany would fall like that?)

Once your government do not respect civil rights anymore the way it should, a private company with this amount of control on your digital life can represent a big threat that unlike in the past, would be pretty hard to get rid of.

What about the concept of digital property? Should you have choices? Can a private company bar your choices? Can a private company own the things that were bought by you and are in a phone that you have pay for?

Imagine if after having bought a vehicle, Wolkswagen could tell you who can you transport: "We dont allow dogs in OUR cars".

Now imagine someone saying: "I like what Wolkswagen do, its for my safety, dogs will damage my car".. "Just buy a Mercedes then!"

Or what if Wolkswagen did also sell vehicle parts, and even if you know there are pieces for your cars that are better or cheap, you wouldnt be able to buy them because the stores would be closed for you.

But then you would say: "But apple dont bar me from buying apps, i have choices.." and its a illusion of choice, because the apps were not even allowed to enter the store in the first place.

So there's a real danger into letting any private company to choose things for you before you are able to choose them.

We should have by now a good legislation about digital rights, digital property, etc, that could regulate this source of thing.

Because as i've witnessed here in the comments, you cannot let people on their own, because they can be emotionally manipulated into want things that will harm them and their rights in the long run.

It should not be just about being good for you at this particular moment, we should always take into account the collective and social implications of our choices.