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Why forgiving someone else is about you

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Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#171

Post by elliekelly »

sngz wrote: post #157
basch wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do I forgive him? no, especially since he never apologized. what you are describing is not forgiveness. It's called moving on. Forgiveness is moving on. It is letting go of your negative emotions. Needing someone else to apologize to "give forgiveness" is not how forgiveness needs to work.

i moved on with my life without forgiving someone. someone apologizing for what they did is the first step to forgiveness. You can't forgive someone who feels no remorse for what they did. They used to be part of my life now they are insignificant. Seems like your definition of forgiveness is different from mine.

> You can't forgive someone who feels no remorse for what they did.

Why not?

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#172

Post by brightball »

chaoticmass wrote: post #152
brightball wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal I know, but I tried for 2 years to forgive someone who had deeply wronged my family, but I simply couldn’t get past feeling like we needed to go to court to make it right and it was eating me up inside. My wife suggested I ask God to help, which I hadn’t tried and didn’t think it would make a difference but I tried it. And it worked. The next day the anger was just...gone and remains so to this day. I reali…

Reminds me of something my Dad sent me when I was dealing with grief over someone who wronged me. It's from the Alcoholics Anonymous book, but I found the advice worked anyway. Here's the scan from the book: https://imgur.com/a/XlkPGLp

Thank you for sharing that. The line at the beginning of the last paragraph jumps out at me.

"This great experience that released me from the bondage of hatred and replaced it with love is really just another affirmation of the truth I know..."

Having really experienced hatred first-hand, the nearly obsessive state of ongoing anger...

It bothers me every time I see people toss around the word "hate" with every disagreement or bias that they believe other people have. Without realizing it, these people are minimizing one of the most dangerous internal emotional experiences that we experience as humans by turning it into hyperbole that nobody takes seriously.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#173

Post by yarrel »

GavinMcG wrote: post #69
trabant00 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does what I said and you quoted happen or not? Because we can argue theory all you want, but reality is what actually happens.

But does what I'm saying also happen? Because if so, you're conflating forgiving with forgetting. This is advocating forgiveness, not forgetfulness.

But if you forgive them why would you not have further dealings with them?

After all, they haven't done anything harmful in your revised opinion.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#175

Post by basch »

sngz wrote: post #157
basch wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do I forgive him? no, especially since he never apologized. what you are describing is not forgiveness. It's called moving on. Forgiveness is moving on. It is letting go of your negative emotions. Needing someone else to apologize to "give forgiveness" is not how forgiveness needs to work.

i moved on with my life without forgiving someone. someone apologizing for what they did is the first step to forgiveness. You can't forgive someone who feels no remorse for what they did. They used to be part of my life now they are insignificant. Seems like your definition of forgiveness is different from mine.

>You can't forgive someone who feels no remorse for what they did.

Yes you can. "I am beyond this event." Making forgiveness contingent on someone elses action removes your own agency. Forgiveness isnt a gift you give someone else.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#176

Post by basch »

yarrel wrote: post #165
basch wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a trite "I forgive you" A trite "I forgive you" isnt forgiveness. Forgiveness is a virtue, which means not everybody has it, or can do it. Forgiveness is not "forgiving" someone that didn't actually wrong you. Forgiveness is not pretending to let go but holding on. Forgiveness is not telling the other person they are forgiven, so the weight is off their shoulders. Forgiveness IS "dealing with the PTSD", letting go,…

So not only must we let those who wrong us off the hook and feel for them, if we can't it's because we aren't virtuous enough. I'm perfectly comfortable ignoring that moral claim. If people want to talk about letting go, talk about letting go . Talk of forgiveness is simply misleading.

>If people want to talk about letting go, talk about letting go. Talk of forgiveness is simply misleading.

That is what forgiveness is, moving on, but not bottling it up or pretending it didn't happen.

>Forgiveness is different from condoning (failing to see the action as wrong and in need of forgiveness), excusing (not holding the offender as responsible for the action), forgetting (removing awareness of the offense from consciousness), pardoning (granted for an acknowledged offense by a representative of society, such as a judge), and reconciliation (restoration of a relationship).

Forgiveness is more like pity. Understanding the environment around a persons life led them to do what they did, maybe feeling bad for them, that thats who they are. Reaching a state of forgiveness does not mean you think they no longer hold responsibility for what they did, or that they should be excused from consequences. You can forgive someone (no longer allow their action hurt you) AND still pursue consequences for their actions.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#178

Post by nitrogen »

M0T0K0 wrote: post #91
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're not free until you deal with the PTSD, and a trite "I forgive you" is absolutely no help with this. Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. Worse, it implies a social pressure to "just deal with it" which is completely inappropriate and can be actively harmful. Good therapists and good therapy can help a lot. The modality doesn't matt…

This. So many here have not had to deal with extensive emotional trauma brought upon manipulations, oversights, ignorance, inexperience, etc. of a parent who was totally a victim too, but THIS DOES NOT NEGATE HOW DANGEROUS they can be. My own mother whom was beaten and abused by an alcoholic grandmother will tragically never be capable of seeing her own faults due to the trauma that basically arrested her development…

I wonder how widespread this is under the radar. It seems like something people don't really talk about.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#179

Post by basch »

M0T0K0 wrote: post #161
pastage wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you do not want a relationship with someone, forgiveness is a way to feel better yourself. It's not about making some one else better, it's about your quality of life. After ten years I'm almost there, but it got better after my first step of deciding to forgive, still get panic attacks though.

I forgive myself for being naive and uninformed. Why would I need to forgive myself for someone else's actions and consequences? Fuck all of that. I sleep more soundly with each day that I remind myself "This other person does not live in reality, move on". Long stopped having "panic attacks" 10 years ago. Coincidentally, right around the time I began to question the abuser's facade. And you do want a relationship wi…

>"This other person does not live in reality, move on".

That is basically forgiveness. It's not a gift you give them, its not letting them off the hook. To forgive someone, they do not need to be aware you have done so. It's you taking control of the damage they did to you, and moving beyond it hurting you further.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#180

Post by throwanem »

nitrogen wrote: post #167
throwanem wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a recipe for redirecting the grudge toward some other external target, instead of letting it go. Not to say you shouldn't do what works for you, as long as you don't hurt anyone else in the doing of it - but to find it as you've put it here gives it the sense of general advice and recommendation, and in that sense it seems very much wanting.

This sounds like a recipe for redirecting the grudge toward some other external target I think that's antithetical to the term forgiveness, so I suspect that's not intended by the parent comment(s). In fact, the exact opposite is how I read their comment, that is that you take your grudges toward external targets and let them go.

I don't know. Framing it in terms of opposition to a perceived political trend doesn't read that way to me, and my own relevant experience includes nothing to suggest that framing forgiveness in any way related to any kind of political anything would be a useful way of dealing with the ramifications of past emotional trauma.

Perhaps the original commenter will come along and clarify.

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