A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life • Hacker News Board

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#271

Post by nitrogen » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #249

bhupy wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making education debts dischargeable in bankruptcy sounds good in theory, but against what collateral do you take out a college loan? Most bankruptcy includes collateral liquidation. What's to stop someone from obtaining a useless degree that doesn't contribute to the nation's economy, and then discharges the debt in bankruptcy? I think a big part of the problem is that debt is so readily issued for degrees that over…

> What's to stop someone from obtaining a useless degree that doesn't contribute to the nation's economy, and then discharges the debt in bankruptcy? I assume lenders would take the degree being pursued, institution at which it’s being pursued and applicant’s academic history (and this likelihood of completing it) into account. Currently, there is zero incentive to do that work.

Some commercial lenders do consider degree/program.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#272

Post by leetcrew » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

geodel wrote: post #262

leetcrew wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If higher ed is highly correlated to escaping poverty and upward economic mobility, then college costs raising at a rate 11 times faster than average income is a form of classism. this is true if you look at the sticker price, but does the actual cost for a low-income family grow at that rate? I'm having a hard time finding a source that shows by year what a bottom quartile family would have paid for tuition at an…

I think this is bullshit. Why would institutes put such high sticker price or why wouldn't they put price clearly based on income level. No one likes when hospital do not give clear price for treatments, same applies for university. Would it better if stores listed loaf of bread at $300 and then people can negotiate the price from there?

> Why would institutes put such high sticker price or why wouldn't they put price clearly based on income level.

they don't put a clear price because they take a lot of different factors into account. take a look at this tuition estimator for vassar: https://studentfinancialservices.vassar.edu/calculator/quick...

the grant is calculated based on your family's income, home value, savings, investments, number of children, and a couple other data points. they can't give an exact number until they see your FAFSA. it sucks that this is so complicated, but I argue most of this is necessary to fairly calculate grants. two different households making $60k might have wildly different abilities to pay for tuition.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#273

Post by joelbluminator » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

dhairya wrote: post #230

joelbluminator wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Currently working as an applied AI researcher and about to go back to get my phd in AI as well" : You're probably in the top 2% of intelligence, that's a huge advantage over most everyone else. People who are closer to the average may need to take more conventional paths to succeed.

While flattering that's not true in my case. It's fair to point out that my story is not conventional but I disagree that we assume that its intelligence or some other individualistic features that primarily determine success. I went to a vocational school high school in a underprivileged community where college was not reality for most students( project manager -> data scientist -> applied AI. It took about ten year…

I agree many people can study law / arts or even nothing at all and just do a bootcamp (or even just study at home without a bootcamp) and become a software engineer / data analyst / etc. But the closer you are to the average, the harder it will probably get to successfully make those switches. Someone who is 30 and finished liberal arts has a big psychological hurdle that works against him when he'll try to switch occupations. Self doubt often creeps, sunk cost fallacy etc. Now the closer you are to average in iq / will power / whatever it is that determines success in engineering, the harder making this switch gets, especially when you're not in your 20s anymore. So to sum up my point is yes everything is possible in theory, but no - we are not created equal. We differ greatly by intelligence, background, emotional intelligence, our ability to change etc etc. The more closer you are to the average part of the curve the smarter you have to play the hand you were dealt.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#274

Post by ThinkingGuy » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

vezycash wrote: post #202

reb wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to distinguish between education and the business of education. I don't think I believe more education can ever be a bad thing. But the business of education in the US is an absolute nightmare that corrupts the spirit of learning it ought to protect, and I agree more of that business will not make things better for students.

> It's important to distinguish between education and the business of education. distinguish between education and schooling

I like to characterize it as "selling education vs. selling diplomas"

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#275

Post by geodel » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:49 PM UTC

francisofascii wrote: post #154

foobiekr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even on the relatively short timeline of the history of the US, the period you’re referring to was quite short.

With the huge increases in productivity since the 1950's, people should be working less hours than in 1950. I don't have a good reason why this should be an anomaly in history.

Sure, if one is willing to stay at 50's living standard. Trouble is what used to be luxury then is now basic necessity and "everyone" must have it.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#276

Post by throwaway894345 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:49 PM UTC

iguy wrote: post #270

throwaway894345 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like we should make the debt conditional on the degree pursued. How much you’re allowed to take out in federal loans ought to be a function of the pay associated with that degree. I’m sure it’s not a perfect system, but it seems a lot better than the status quo or solutions that involve burdening society with the economic liability of a glut of (economically) low-value degrees.

My suggestion to achieve this is to cap repayments (of non-dischargable loans), perhaps at 15% of taxable income, and written off 20 years after signing. That would make lenders very interested in the outcomes of various courses. And their offers to prospective students would convey useful career advice, too.

That seems reasonable.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#277

Post by zuhayeer » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:52 PM UTC

"Some kids think they know what they want to do after college, but others don’t, so for them college is like buying an expensive insurance policy"

Expensive is an understatement. At the same time, being unsure of what you want to do before college is what makes it a great place to sow the seeds for what you do in life. Funnily enough that happens mostly outside of class through people you meet and projects you work on.

Since the physical aspect of college is in question this upcoming year, I feel that it isn't worth it. You can probably do a lot of school without actually paying tuition, and find new ways to meet people and work on projects.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#278

Post by Auracle » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

simplify wrote: post #264

bhupy wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making education debts dischargeable in bankruptcy sounds good in theory, but against what collateral do you take out a college loan? Most bankruptcy includes collateral liquidation. What's to stop someone from obtaining a useless degree that doesn't contribute to the nation's economy, and then discharges the debt in bankruptcy? I think a big part of the problem is that debt is so readily issued for degrees that over…

> What's to stop someone from obtaining a useless degree that doesn't contribute to the nation's economy, and then discharges the debt in bankruptcy? Nothing, and that's exactly why education debts need to be dischargeable like anything else. Dischargeable loans makes loan companies have actual responsibility and consequences in deciding who to give loans to. Otherwise, they blindly give out loans (why not, there's n…

But it could lead to plenty of people making the smart decision to file for bankruptcy even when they have a good degree. Bankruptcy at 22 isn’t that big of a deal, generally.

I’m not sure what the answer is, though I think an economic approach is key.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#279

Post by joelbluminator » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #216

joelbluminator wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Currently working as an applied AI researcher and about to go back to get my phd in AI as well" : You're probably in the top 2% of intelligence, that's a huge advantage over most everyone else. People who are closer to the average may need to take more conventional paths to succeed.

There is no shortage of liberal arts majors who went to coding bootcamps and are now working as software developers, even if only a minority of them are in something as cutting-edge as AI research.

It definitely happens, but we shouldn't make it look easier than it is. I agree it's one of the fields where you don't need a formal education / diploma so in that sense the barrier to entry is indeed low.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#280

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #243

csharptwdec19 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you covered part of the problem in the second half of your statement. In the US, part of the problem is that by making education debts non-dischargable in bankruptcy, and by the aforementioned proliferation of degrees that may qualify as 'nice to have' rather than 'increase earning potential'. The end result is a lot of people who got a college degree that doesn't really pay for itself, and instead leads to 2…

Making education debts dischargeable in bankruptcy sounds good in theory, but against what collateral do you take out a college loan? Most bankruptcy includes collateral liquidation. What's to stop someone from obtaining a useless degree that doesn't contribute to the nation's economy, and then discharges the debt in bankruptcy? I think a big part of the problem is that debt is so readily issued for degrees that over…

[deleted]