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Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#121

Post by anonbclibtards »

eropple wrote: post #93
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Please name some relevant countries who might be willing to bet their internal security that a hypothetical 5 year security promise from the US would definitely be operative after year 4. Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Israel and everyone in NATO from Poland on west. Yes, we're going through a rough patch because the US is (rightfully) sick of playing world police at the same time as China/Russia are on the up but to t…

> the US is (rightfully) sick of playing world police That is not a reasonable description of the current situation unless you think that the guy whose party commands a thunderous minority but wins (both the Presidency and the Senate) due to electoral bugs gets to say what we, as Americans, are and are not "sick of".

> due to electoral bugs

Electoral College is a bug when Democrats lose, got it.

If both candidates campaigned knowing that the popular vote was the deciding factor, we would have seen different campaign strategies and there's no way of knowing the winner.

Both sides knew the rules going in, Hillary lost, by a lot.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#122

Post by bobthechef »

eropple wrote: post #93
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Please name some relevant countries who might be willing to bet their internal security that a hypothetical 5 year security promise from the US would definitely be operative after year 4. Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Israel and everyone in NATO from Poland on west. Yes, we're going through a rough patch because the US is (rightfully) sick of playing world police at the same time as China/Russia are on the up but to t…

> the US is (rightfully) sick of playing world police That is not a reasonable description of the current situation unless you think that the guy whose party commands a thunderous minority but wins (both the Presidency and the Senate) due to electoral bugs gets to say what we, as Americans, are and are not "sick of".

Indeed, world police is the role any international hegemon plays to secure trade routes and stability. But I wouldn't discredit the idea entirely. NATO does have its requirements and few members chip in their fair share. Furthermore, geopolitical interests are shifting and this fact may be politically useful. Right now, for example, the US, Germany/EU, and Russia are fighting over influence in the central European states with Poland at the helm. Shifting military presence eastward strengthens American influence, blocks Russian meddling, and frustrates German/EU power in the region, though the last is trying to make the US dominance work for them (note Germany's interest in the American-backed Three Seas Initiative).

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#123

Post by openasocket »

HenryKissinger wrote: post #19
mschuster91 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US policy toward NATO has been remarkably consistent. Yeah, with Trump moving troops out of Germany because he believes, contrary to all facts, we'd be trying to rip them off. Not to mention the whole Iraq fiasco with Bush trying to rope NATO allies in a war based on lies.

Yes, there is a level of pettiness at work in this recent decision. What they want to do is shift to a rotational force model and deploy another Armored Brigade Combat Team to Poland every 9 months instead of having an SBCT in Germany. Meaning you have to move 2 ABCTs(~4500 Soldiers and all their equipment) in/out of the theater. The main tactical problem with that is that those forces don't have standoff distance fr…

I think the defense spending reasoning particularly ironic, given that half of the troops being moved out of Germany are going to Italy and Belgium, which spend a far smaller share of GDP on defense than Germany.

I think the move is really poorly thought out if the goal is to penalize Germany and discourage their behavior. Because what is Germany losing? The political embarrassment of having troops leave? Is that really worth the billions it will cost to move troops? Because I feel like if the US was willing to spend billions to apply political pressure to Germany there could have been much more effective ways to go about it. And then there's the damage this does to the security of Europe broadly. If this in any way reduces our ability to deter Russia, that hurts all of NATO, not just Germany.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#124

Post by bobthechef »

surfmike wrote: post #112
bovermyer wrote: post #5

Once the USA has a sane commander-in-chief again, it's going to need to completely overhaul its approach to the Eastern European region, among other things.

Eastern Europe (outside of Russia) has been quite happy with NATO’s increased involvement on their borders. I hope this does not change, and don’t anticipate it will under Biden.

Not sure about that. Obama halted the deployment of the missile defense shield in Poland/Czech Republic and reset the US relationship with Russia. Anyone who understands Russia knew that was about as idiotic of a move you could have made (barring any kind of strategic aim to lull Russia into demonstrating its intentions in Georgia and Ukraine, but I doubt foreign policy is that forward thinking, and American Euromaidan just reveals its duplicity). Given Biden's eastern ties, I would not be surprised if he halted any plans to move US troops eastward.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#125

Post by adventured »

foepys wrote: post #108
ceilingcorner wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Polish defence minister says the US will deploy 1,000 soldiers in Poland to oversee forces on NATO's eastern flank. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/07/poland-deploy-1000-tr... The article even uses the term "NATO's eastern flank."

Get 12,000 soldiers home from Germany, deploy 1,000 in Poland and call it strengthening the eastern front. That math doesn't check out at all.

It checks perfectly. Germany isn't part of the eastern flank, Poland is.

Germany has absolutely no need to have US soldiers stationed in their territory. They're fully capable - in all regards - of defending their own nation. Adding soldiers to Poland is strengthening the eastern flank because Poland is in Eastern Europe, Germany is not.

If the US removes 100% of its soldiers from Germany and adds only 3,000 to Poland, that also would be strengthening the eastern flank.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#126

Post by rudolph9 »

runarberg wrote: post #107
seventytwo wrote: post #26

Gee, I wonder what nation could possibly be behind this?

Why are you sure it is a nation. NATO is by no means an uncontroversial entity. Millions of peace activists—including my self—would love to see it abolished. Although I do admit, the content of the fake news articles seem a little crude to be coming from peace activists. Personally I would post simple truthful anti-NATO, anti-military, and anti-nuclear weapons propaganda if I had the will to break into news web sites…

Maybe it’s not a nation but at the very least it’s a nation is likely turning a blind eye to those who are doing it as it aligns with their interests.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#127

Post by [deleted] »

criley2 wrote: post #119
jessaustin wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_2019_United_States_ai... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Civil_War_(2011) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war

- Airstrikes are not a war and the US is not at war with Iran (believe me, you'd know if they were) - Libya was started by France who begged the US to join them on their little sorties, Italy ran air command too, the US was just along for the ride) - The Syrian Civil War has basically nothing to do with America, blame Russia as the leadership there gassing civilians and genociding undesirables is a Putin stooge.

[deleted]

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#128

Post by i_cannot_hack »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #76
_jal wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incentives and risks look very different in a local free trade agreement than, say, multilateral talks about What To Do About Syria. Please name some relevant countries who might be willing to bet their internal security that a hypothetical 5 year security promise from the US would definitely be operative after year 4. But I do hope I'm wrong. I guess we'll see.

>Please name some relevant countries who might be willing to bet their internal security that a hypothetical 5 year security promise from the US would definitely be operative after year 4. Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Israel and everyone in NATO from Poland on west. Yes, we're going through a rough patch because the US is (rightfully) sick of playing world police at the same time as China/Russia are on the up but to t…

You attempt a really weird spin when you try to attribute the rough patch to the U.S being "rightfully sick of playing world police". When the current commander in chief threatens nuclear war on Twitter and assassinates military commanders on sovereign soil. It's not really hallmarks of a laid-back foreign policy.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#129

Post by umvi »

hnarn wrote: post #114
umvi wrote: post #67

USA itself is already souring on NATO, no hackers needed. Many in the USA are tired of being criticized for being the "world police" yet the same critics also scream when the USA starts pulling its military personnel out of their country (like Germany, most recently). I say Europe should use their own money to build their own Navy and Air Forces to protect their own interests and make their own trade and travel route…

Unfortunately for you and the rest of Americans that feel this isolationist tendency, your country will be a part of the world whether you like it or not. A modern conflict that does not involve the US is not the same thing as a modern conflict that does not affect the US. Also, your opinion of Europe doesn’t seem founded in reality. Since when does European nations not have their own standing armies, and since when…

Well, I'm sick and tired of being lambasted by the rest of the world 24/7 and would like to go back to pre-WW2 isolationism.

EU can fend for itself. It doesn't need the US military. And the USA doesn't need NATO. Our military is bigger than the rest of NATO combined.

> Since when does European nations not have their own standing armies

Europe spends very little on their military compared to USA, China, Russia, etc.

> and since when are American army resources used to protect European borders and shipping routes?

US Navy protects merchant ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, fiber optic cables, and more from damage, sabotage, seizure, piracy, and more. If you don't recognize global trade and communications stability provided by US Navy, it's time to be reminded. It's time you protect your own interests with your own money. It's time you deal with Russia on your own without a US presence.

> The US needs the rest of the world as much as the rest of the world needs the US

You just said you don't need "American army resources" because the European nations have their own "standing armies". I whole-heartedly agree. Let Europe use its own military to protect its own interests.

> You seem to be under the influence that the US is somehow being fleeced by the rest of the world

It does seem like "biting the hand that feeds you".

From my perspective EU is like "Cool, USA is taking care of tons of stuff we would normally have to pay for military-wise, so we can use that money instead to provide more social services to our citizens! Also the USA sucks [insert criticisms at every opportunity]"

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#130

Post by gdy »

josh2600 wrote: post #97

Disinformatziya. No document I have ever read covers this topic in more detail than this briefing by Peter Pomerantsev, author of “Nothing is real and everything is possible.” https://imrussia.org/media/pdf/Research/Michael_Weiss_and_Pe... This briefing, which is held in the library of Congress, is where I first heard the term “fake news” in 2014. It’s a stunning contextualization of what has been happening in the la…

Is it worth reading? Anything different from the CIA's PsyOps?
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