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Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

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Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#61
post #19

The percentage of smart people working in finance trended much higher then science and engineering. Fake disciplines like "Financial Engineering" thus became paramount. Institutions supported these changes.

Speculative fields have became more noticeable. Though, can you tell me what is not speculative in social culture? If one were to push it, what you call "fake disciplines" can extend to most of human society. Don't go there.

My fake discipline comment is a direct response to the havoc wrought by attempting to place a normal distribution, which worked so nicely in insurance when dealing with things like lifespan, on top of a chaotic system like finance. Long Term Capital Management, Value at Risk, and other models from very, very smart quantitative minds who simply misunderstood the problem space and almost took down the world economy. I call that a "fake discipline".

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#62
Why? Too many scientists. Federal funding (and funding of other nations seeking to improve prestige) has inflated a science bubble. naturally, the number of mediocre scientists has increased like crazy. The low reputation of scientists is well deserved. In fact, I believe it should be even lower. Having many non-science friends, they are very surprised when I inform them that there actually is a ton of fraud and misconduct in science.

Other side effects: Being a scientist is awful. Right now, I've got a PhD, I get paid $20/hour for 40 hours of work a week (I actually put around 70 hours of work in the lab). I don't have health insurance (the irony, I'm being paid by the DOE) and this job actually pays better than the last. I don't have time to date. I want to start a company but I can't because I don't have the finances to do simple experiments at home. My life is basically being deferred.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#63

Was the social prestige of science and engineer higher before? I'm not sure if I actually buy the premise.

I think there were a few times when we had blips higher. In the late 1800s and early 1900s and during the space race. I can't find specific data on it, so it is possible that re-written history has led me astray on this point. I also think, given the pipeline visible in research, we will have a resurgence in a decade or two.

Your assumption is that an increased labor force will result in an increase in productivity.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#64
post #2

Two books I've recently read are The Age of American Unreason by Jacoby [1] and Unscientific America by Mooney & Kirschenbaum [2]. Both are worth reading, but Jacoby gives a deeper and more thoughtful analysis and spends considerable time on historical roots and trends. This topic is tied heavily to politics, and I hesitate to get into that here. I will say this: science is about exploring, like math is about explori…

We have a government that generally believes we can legislate our problems away and that most people are incapable of taking care of themselves. When you start from that premise, everything that you do "for the good of society" or "because it's fair" ends up stepping on someone, usually those closer to the top. Alternatively, when you have leadership coming from fields where reason and making things better by creatin…

I would never want an engineer as a president for fear that they would try to engineer our lives.

And pushing to strengthen those fields. That can be really bad. When I read the literature, my default attitude to when I read an article published by a chinese research lab is, "it's probably fraud, if you're dying to believe the result, try at least a simple experiment to make sure it's real first". I am not the only one. China may have a "good reputation" on the face of things, but theirs is not the sort of reputation I would want to have among the people in the know.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8448731.stm

a top-down approach to acting on fraud, in my opinion, just results in people trying to figure out how to game the system to not get caught. To fix fraud, you have to improve the culture, and remove the incentives to fraud. That's really hard when you have people competing for a small number of tenured positions which attract increasing amounts of funding.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#65

The percentage of smart people working in finance trended much higher then science and engineering. Fake disciplines like "Financial Engineering" thus became paramount. Institutions supported these changes.

Just because people are making a lot of money in finance does not mean they are smart, or would be capable working as an engineer or scientist.

Many of the best entry-level jobs in finance go to top engineering graduates.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#66
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a government that generally believes we can legislate our problems away and that most people are incapable of taking care of themselves. When you start from that premise, everything that you do "for the good of society" or "because it's fair" ends up stepping on someone, usually those closer to the top. Alternatively, when you have leadership coming from fields where reason and making things better by creatin…

No, Jimmy Carter was a nuc. Navy, selected by Rickover, etc.

Which just goes to to prove that technical or scientific knowledge is not a good indicator of political effectiveness. Carter's presidency was a disaster.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#67
Tyler Cowen's essay was mentioned here before and I think it's a pretty good way to frame your thinking about the subject. The reason the prestige of science and engineering declined is because the direct and visible impact on every day life of those professions has also declined. A lot of technical areas have matured since the 1950's and are offering mostly incremental improvements.

Not to say that the 'actual' impact has declined, but people in the United States are no longer impressed by a greener plastic or a slightly newer satellite being lofted into space. Compare that to places like China or even India that are somewhat behind in bringing industrialization to the entire population and you have engineers make visible impact to every day life and therefore rationally have more importance and thereby prestige. I'm sure that in a few decades once they start catching up, engineering will also start declining as a prestigious profession.

There are lots of other intellectually demanding professions such as law, medicine and even finance that have droves of bright students signing up. I think that while they attract students, and are useful at all stages of development, they really come up to the top once you have a stable political system, and a relatively wealthy population. Once technical change stops being radical you enter a maintenance phase. If you have basic health needs met you start trying to squeeze out more and more advances in medicine to prolong the life of a relatively healthy population. Once new products become mostly enhancements of old ideas, trying to compete using the law can be more efficient in terms of effort expanded to results achieved.

I think that trying to use marketing or propaganda to try and raise the prestige of scientists can only go so far. Technology needs to offer radical and easily visible everyday impact to outshine the other intellectual professions.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#68
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a government that generally believes we can legislate our problems away and that most people are incapable of taking care of themselves. When you start from that premise, everything that you do "for the good of society" or "because it's fair" ends up stepping on someone, usually those closer to the top. Alternatively, when you have leadership coming from fields where reason and making things better by creatin…

No, Jimmy Carter was a nuc. Navy, selected by Rickover, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter#Naval_career

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#69
post #56
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Where I got the idea" is the synopses and comments of the two books as I said. Your comment seems to confirm that you agree that religion is to blame for science illiteracy. Perhaps some people will be interested in a study with empirical data regarding the alleged american adult science illiteracy: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~slosh//PCST90578.pdf

I believe my comment took account of the role that some extreme religious viewpoints play, while stating that the moderate majority is capable of accepting science. It seems no matter what I write you are blaming me for having an extreme stance. I do not. There is no reason for me to give all religion viewpoints a pass. I will not. There's no reason to take criticism of any religious sect as a criticism of all religi…

I don't know what your stance is and I don't know the book's stance is.

All I know is what the synopsis and the comments state its primary arguments are - that religion is the cause of trouble with scientific literacy of the US public. Beyond that I have made no comments, but I see a lot of downvoting and feather ruffling in response to simple statement of facts. I did show with a link that the premise of the argument, that there is trouble with scientific literacy in the US, is questionable.

I responded to the question "where did you get that idea" and was downvoted when I answered the question. I find that interesting.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#70
post #67

Tyler Cowen's essay was mentioned here before and I think it's a pretty good way to frame your thinking about the subject. The reason the prestige of science and engineering declined is because the direct and visible impact on every day life of those professions has also declined. A lot of technical areas have matured since the 1950's and are offering mostly incremental improvements. Not to say that the 'actual' impa…

Interesting. So the decline of the "low-hanging fruits" of technology is the cause, and not the effect, of the decline in the social prestige of science and technology, if I'm understanding you right.
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