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Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

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Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#21

Post by tsotha »

I don't see any reason to believe the social prestige of science and engineering is actually declining. It's never been very high. You can go back to popular culture references in the '50s to see that.

People aren't avoiding STEM majors in college because of a lack of prestige. It's because science and technology is hard work and there's not a lot of money in it. If you're willing to put in that kind of time there are other, easier ways to make more money.

Outside of a small slice of the population in media and entertainment, "social prestige" is nothing more than how much money you make . Investment bankers don't get a lot of interest from women because investment banking is interesting or investment bankers are seen to be somehow better than other people.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#23

Post by arethuza »

It's not just the US - it happened in the UK at the same time. Although it is very obvious that in places like Germany this decline never happened (or at least not to the same extent).

Interestingly enough, in a fairly recent poll of the Top 100 Britons an engineer came second, only problem is he lived in the 19th century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#24

Post by caseysoftware »

dwc wrote: post #2

Two books I've recently read are The Age of American Unreason by Jacoby [1] and Unscientific America by Mooney & Kirschenbaum [2]. Both are worth reading, but Jacoby gives a deeper and more thoughtful analysis and spends considerable time on historical roots and trends. This topic is tied heavily to politics, and I hesitate to get into that here. I will say this: science is about exploring, like math is about explori…

We have a government that generally believes we can legislate our problems away and that most people are incapable of taking care of themselves. When you start from that premise, everything that you do "for the good of society" or "because it's fair" ends up stepping on someone, usually those closer to the top. Alternatively, when you have leadership coming from fields where reason and making things better by creating are valued, you get a different result.

Oddly enough, I'll cite China as an improving example of this and I think it's due to the make up of their leadership:

* In the US, the top of the Obama Administration is mostly lawyers and/or mostly from Harvard. Over half the Senators were/are lawyers. The last President with technical/scientific training past Chem 101 was Herbert Hoover.. 80 years ago.

* On the other hand, China's president was a hydraulic engineer and the Communist Politburo is eight engineers and a lawyer. Their previous president was an electrical engineer.

Source: http://www.economist.com/node/13496638

Which country do you think values scientists and engineering more? Which country do you think understands science and engineering better and pushes to strengthen those fields or at least gets the hell out of the way?

(Now I feel dirty for celebrating something about China's political leadership.)

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#26

Post by kmfrk »

irickt wrote: post #11
kmfrk wrote: post #6

Read Anti-Intellectualism in America by Richard* Hofstadter; it's as true and relevant today, as it was back then. The decline, if any, probably has to do with the fact that there wasn't a Cold War where scientists could participate directly against a tangible threat and common purpose: “The Sputnik was more than a shock to American national vanity: it brought an immense amount of attention to bear on the consequence…

Correction: Anti-Intellectualism in American Life by Richard Hofstadter

Thanks. Those pesky, prolific Hofstadters.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#27

Post by dwc »

bugsy wrote: post #20
dwc wrote: post #2

Two books I've recently read are The Age of American Unreason by Jacoby [1] and Unscientific America by Mooney & Kirschenbaum [2]. Both are worth reading, but Jacoby gives a deeper and more thoughtful analysis and spends considerable time on historical roots and trends. This topic is tied heavily to politics, and I hesitate to get into that here. I will say this: science is about exploring, like math is about explori…

From the synopses and the comments of those two books, here is a summary: "It is all the dumb people that won't accept the One Truth of atheism that are to blame!"

I'm not sure where you got that idea[1]. There was a time several decades ago when the Christian proletariat majority widely supported science, read popular periodicals about science, and aspired to educate their children in science and engineering. There was also a time when conservatives were far more pro-science than liberals. This is why it's important to know some of the history here. Today's anti-science sentiment is surely rooted in right wing Christian factions, and that needs to be fought. But there's absolutely no reason to think that conservative Christians can't endorse and value science, since they have in the past.

The acknowledgement of past conservative/religious alignment with science comes from Jacoby. Decrying the current state is not the same as a summary dismissal.

Mooney and Kirschenbaum are what the "New Atheists" call accommodationists. Atheists themselves, they believe in embracing and working with religious people to find common ground. They're looking to bond with the "sane" religious moderate majority and fight the Luddite, anti-science extremists.

EDITED to add:

1. Ok, you got that idea from comments, obviously. Beware comments on such things. They probably say more about the commenter than about the book.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#28

Post by jseliger »

zaidf wrote: post #16

My pediatric surgeon dad who deals with kids everyday loves to chat with kids about their aspirations. In the US, vast majority of the kids want to become firefighters or cops. In contrast, when my dad practiced in India, majority of kids wanted to become doctors or engineers. It's probably hard to tell the cause from the effect. May be they both have a little bit to do with each other. But in Indian movies, for exam…

In the US, vast majority of the kids want to become firefighters or cops. . . . It's probably hard to tell the cause from the effect.

I think it's easy: jobs as scientists in the U.S. suck relative to other jobs. See here: http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16...? for more. Basically, if you have the chops to get a job in science, you're probably better off doing something else (like med school; lots of people want to be doctors).

Consider that firefighters or cops get paid reasonably well; effectively can't be fired after a short probationary period unless they do something incredibly egregious because they're protected by unions; have jobs that demand physical activity, so they aren't just sitting in front of a screen all day; and, in the case of firefighters, have a level of social prestige that means (male) firefighters are almost universally admired by women.

Wanting to be a cop or firefighter requires a two-year degree, if that. Wanting to be a pediatric surgeon takes a minimum of 12 (four for undergrad, four for med school, four for residency, although I think it's more than four). Wanting to be an engineer takes at least four.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#29

Post by awarzzkktsyfj »

bradshaw1965 wrote: post #10

The percentage of smart people working in finance trended much higher then science and engineering. Fake disciplines like "Financial Engineering" thus became paramount. Institutions supported these changes.

Just because people are making a lot of money in finance does not mean they are smart, or would be capable working as an engineer or scientist.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#30

Post by bugsy »

dwc wrote: post #27
bugsy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the synopses and the comments of those two books, here is a summary: "It is all the dumb people that won't accept the One Truth of atheism that are to blame!"

I'm not sure where you got that idea[1]. There was a time several decades ago when the Christian proletariat majority widely supported science, read popular periodicals about science, and aspired to educate their children in science and engineering. There was also a time when conservatives were far more pro-science than liberals. This is why it's important to know some of the history here. Today's anti-science sentim…

"Where I got the idea" is the synopses and comments of the two books as I said. Your comment seems to confirm that you agree that religion is to blame for science illiteracy.

Perhaps some people will be interested in a study with empirical data regarding the alleged american adult science illiteracy: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~slosh//PCST90578.pdf

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