Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#51

Post by bluekeybox » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 6:17 PM UTC

orijing wrote: post #36

jseliger wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, vast majority of the kids want to become firefighters or cops. . . . It's probably hard to tell the cause from the effect. I think it's easy: jobs as scientists in the U.S. suck relative to other jobs. See here: http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16... ? for more. Basically, if you have the chops to get a job in science, you're probably better off doing something else (like med schoo…

> I think it's easy: jobs as scientists in the U.S. suck relative to other jobs. Consider that firefighters or cops get paid reasonably well; effectively can't be fired after a short probationary period unless they do something incredibly egregious because they're protected by unions; have jobs that demand physical activity, so they aren't just sitting in front of a screen all day; and, in the case of firefighters, h…

> apparent admiration

This. Kids don't know what power is. Desire to serve the country is not going to play a role here either. It's the cultural programming targeting kids: "oh, cool, look, a firetruck!" Same with sports. It's somewhat ironic that many blue-collar jobs are probably more glorified in the mainland U.S. than they are in former Soviet countries. Though this illusion disappears as soon as you realize that jobs where the majority of the workforce are immigrants immediately lose the "cool" status.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#52

Post by nooneelse » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 6:31 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #24

dwc wrote: post #2

Two books I've recently read are The Age of American Unreason by Jacoby [1] and Unscientific America by Mooney & Kirschenbaum [2]. Both are worth reading, but Jacoby gives a deeper and more thoughtful analysis and spends considerable time on historical roots and trends. This topic is tied heavily to politics, and I hesitate to get into that here. I will say this: science is about exploring, like math is about explori…

We have a government that generally believes we can legislate our problems away and that most people are incapable of taking care of themselves. When you start from that premise, everything that you do "for the good of society" or "because it's fair" ends up stepping on someone, usually those closer to the top. Alternatively, when you have leadership coming from fields where reason and making things better by creatin…

A little more grist for your mill... the former president of India, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._P._J._Abdul_Kalam , aeronautical engineer.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#53

Post by ricarr » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 6:32 PM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #21

I don't see any reason to believe the social prestige of science and engineering is actually declining . It's never been very high. You can go back to popular culture references in the '50s to see that. People aren't avoiding STEM majors in college because of a lack of prestige. It's because science and technology is hard work and there's not a lot of money in it. If you're willing to put in that kind of time there a…

Investment bankers are aggressive male animals. Is is possible women actually find that exciting? ...

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#54

Post by stretchwithme » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 6:34 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #31

kmfrk wrote: post #6

Read Anti-Intellectualism in America by Richard* Hofstadter; it's as true and relevant today, as it was back then. The decline, if any, probably has to do with the fact that there wasn't a Cold War where scientists could participate directly against a tangible threat and common purpose: “The Sputnik was more than a shock to American national vanity: it brought an immense amount of attention to bear on the consequence…

Part of the problem is that the American distrust of intellectualism is itself not the irrational thing that those sympathetic to intellectuals would like to think. Intellectuals killed by the millions in the 20th century, and it actually takes the sophisticated training of "education" to work yourself up into a state where you refuse to count that in the books. Intellectuals routinely declared things that aren't tru…

Its not so much that mistaken intellectuals declare things that aren't true, but that those incapable of thinking for themselves use the power of government to impose these ideas on the rest of us that is the problem.

For example, Keynesian economic theory. How many of its advocates can actually explain it, let alone question its precepts. This even after trillions of dollars in destruction, all because they gave up on trying to grasp it in college.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#55

Post by neutronicus » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 6:39 PM UTC

zaidf wrote: post #16

My pediatric surgeon dad who deals with kids everyday loves to chat with kids about their aspirations. In the US, vast majority of the kids want to become firefighters or cops. In contrast, when my dad practiced in India, majority of kids wanted to become doctors or engineers. It's probably hard to tell the cause from the effect. May be they both have a little bit to do with each other. But in Indian movies, for exam…

This may be regional - in the midwest, "doctor's wife" and, hence, "doctor", are still very prestigious.

(Perhaps you can tell that it isn't my favorite region of the country)

I also suspect that corruption in India plays a role - if policemen are constantly hassling people you know and extorting bribes it may change your outlook on that particular profession. I don't think the respect we have for law enforcement in this country is unwarranted.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#56

Post by dwc » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 6:40 PM UTC

bugsy wrote: post #30

dwc wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you got that idea[1]. There was a time several decades ago when the Christian proletariat majority widely supported science, read popular periodicals about science, and aspired to educate their children in science and engineering. There was also a time when conservatives were far more pro-science than liberals. This is why it's important to know some of the history here. Today's anti-science sentim…

"Where I got the idea" is the synopses and comments of the two books as I said. Your comment seems to confirm that you agree that religion is to blame for science illiteracy. Perhaps some people will be interested in a study with empirical data regarding the alleged american adult science illiteracy: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~slosh//PCST90578.pdf

I believe my comment took account of the role that some extreme religious viewpoints play, while stating that the moderate majority is capable of accepting science.

It seems no matter what I write you are blaming me for having an extreme stance. I do not. There is no reason for me to give all religion viewpoints a pass. I will not. There's no reason to take criticism of any religious sect as a criticism of all religion. That's not the argument I'm making, nor am I implying it.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#57

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 7:03 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #31

kmfrk wrote: post #6

Read Anti-Intellectualism in America by Richard* Hofstadter; it's as true and relevant today, as it was back then. The decline, if any, probably has to do with the fact that there wasn't a Cold War where scientists could participate directly against a tangible threat and common purpose: “The Sputnik was more than a shock to American national vanity: it brought an immense amount of attention to bear on the consequence…

Part of the problem is that the American distrust of intellectualism is itself not the irrational thing that those sympathetic to intellectuals would like to think. Intellectuals killed by the millions in the 20th century, and it actually takes the sophisticated training of "education" to work yourself up into a state where you refuse to count that in the books. Intellectuals routinely declared things that aren't tru…

[deleted]

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#58

Post by triviatise » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 7:17 PM UTC

People chase what inspires them. The problem is that there are no heroes in science like there are in sports. Here are a couple of ways to inspire people: 1) Huge prizes like the X prize for a variety of breakthroughs (milestones in energy independence) Prizes should be 10M+ so they get a lot of media attention. Turn the scientists into media celebrities. The main benefit is that the government gets huge leverage for every dollar spent and doesnt spend any money until a milestone is reached. 2) Create competitions for students to teachers to professionals to compete in at every level similar to sports. Televise (reality tv) and make the competitions fun. Make the prizes 100K plus.

---------------------- This is happening already with entrepreneurs - a few young hotshots getting really wealthy in technology startups should generate interest in science/math/tech. But definitely have inspired a generation to start their own tech businesses.

Dancing with the stars, american idol, all the chef shows - have all increased interest in those fields/hobbies.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#59

Post by juiceandjuice » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 7:18 PM UTC

http://www.phds.org/reading/schwartz/market.pdf

http://departments.colgate.edu/physics/miscelanneous/aiprep0...

http://physics.tsu.edu/Academics/EDphysund07.pdf

Some good examples of how degrees in physics have changed relative to population, enrollment, job markets, etc...

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#60

Post by Lost_BiomedE » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 7:31 PM UTC

karolisd wrote: post #22

Was the social prestige of science and engineer higher before? I'm not sure if I actually buy the premise.

I think there were a few times when we had blips higher. In the late 1800s and early 1900s and during the space race. I can't find specific data on it, so it is possible that re-written history has led me astray on this point.

I also think, given the pipeline visible in research, we will have a resurgence in a decade or two.