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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

871–880 of 1001 posts

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#871

I know these are anecdotes but I already heard several cases from my circle of friends and families where they just chose not to work because of unemployment checks. Instead of practicing music or learning programming or doing something productive during their period of unemployment, they decided to watch Netflix and play games all day. Creating is hard work, studying is hard work. Just like having information and on…

I'm not sure what you're advocating here. That the threat of being homeless forces people to work, against their will? - and that this is better than the alternative for a significant chunk of the populace? Maybe. That seems quite narrowminded. It certainly is [citation needed].

The threat of starvation forces pumas to hunt against their will. Should we start setting out food bowls for the local pumas?

We should absolutely force people to be productive members of society if the alternative is to steal from other people so that they can sit at home all day.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#872
post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point. In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive. I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the pr…

You don’t think very clearly if you think prices magically raise.

There are still market forces and people retain freedom to move.

“Predatory nature of those in power is put in check” UBI puts it in check by allowing the market to solve for everything while guaranteeing a minimum market participant power for all members.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question I can't answer is "what stops a nation voting itself more income?" If every unscrupulous politician can promise to raise the base UBI rate to get elected, what stops that? Obviously, inflation will fix it in the relatively short term, but that's not a good result. And there's an unscrupulous politician in power.

There's a more general problem. What's the right amount of UBI? Even with the best intentions someone will be unhappy.

I guess the amount that will generate GDP growth..

In the end, it probably doesn't have to be perfect, just better than status quo.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#874
post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

4. Coasting. Plenty of people just want to live and not do any work. This has obvious detriment to the economy as they are just parasites.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#875
post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

My biggest UBI fear is this. UBI becomes the single biggest election issue. Politicians promising increases to get elected, and all the bad policy that stems from such motivations. This is then followed by an inevitable pullback at some point in the future, causing immense harm to everyone relying on every cent of their UBI (most people).

> UBI becomes the single biggest election issue. Politicians promising increases to get elected.

I'm still unsure about UBI, but isn't this already a problem with taxes today? Politicians promise lower taxes.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#876
If you want to do UBI, the correct implementation is:

- Give the same amount to everybody* , with no means testing to avoid it become a political football. Bill Gates gets it too. This also removes any dis-incentive to work while also collecting UBI. Otherwise congress with write up a 9000 page law about who gets how much and when, which they then hold everybody hostage to.

- Pay for it with a flat tax on all income from all sources, including capital gains, dividends and carried interest. All the money goes into a separate off-budget pool for immediate monthly distribution. Like SSI, but with no 'investing' in treasuries or anything else. Don't let the politicians get their hands on it. Money comes in and immediately goes out. This makes it self-balancing. As people reduce their work, the pool shrinks, causing some people at the margins to re-enter the workforce. As we become more productive the pool will increase, allowing more people at the margins to reduce work if they want to. The tax rate can be adjusted as necessary as we see how it's working out.

* "Everybody" certainly has nuance to it that has to be defined. Children? Green card holders? Illegal Aliens? Felons? Inmates? Citizens living abroad? This is certainly an important definition, but less important than the overall idea.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#877
post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

The first thing will be forced by economic factors, not just landlords doing their job. everyone just takes a permanent vacation because work sucks. At the very least a lot of them will work less. This is an intended outcome. Supply hence falls through the floor because full automation doesn't exist. As supply is constrained and demand is just as high (if not higher) this in turn starts triggering higher prices which is to say (hyper)inflation. Now your UBI is worth nothing and you will be joining the nearest sweatshop soon. If the government tries to inflation correct UBI it will just make it worse.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#878
post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> your horrible job

The problem I have with this is “who gets to define what is and is not a horrible job?”

Just not liking your job can’t be the litmus test here. If 95 percent of people doing a job thinks it’s a fine job and 5% hate it, does that make it a horrible job? What about 5% and 95%? When does a job become horrible?

Also, what about a generational change in attitudes or a difference in attitudes between regions. There are jobs I did that I consider decent honest work that I put myself through college doing that many people twenty years my junior would not even consider. There are jobs city folks would do that country folks would not do? There are jobs immigrants are fine with that native born citizens would consider horrible.

For those of us working hard and paying lots of taxes, we have expectations here since it's the fruits of our labor that are paying for all this. If we're expected to work so others don't have to, there needs to be solid justification that those of us still working agree with.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#879
post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

1 this exists and is way worse with wages. People are forced to work, and at mercy of their employers. UBI frees people from wage slavery.

2. This is no different than now. Endless scams- advertising, etc all the time to extract peoples money. Regardless of source.

3. Duck ups aren't going away. Under UBI they at least won't be at the mercy of beauracy and changing political will re funding social services. And people who want to volunteer to help them will be free to do so not having to spend a 1\3 or more of their waking life just to survive.

UBI won't fix all problems. But its advantages outweigh.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#880
post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

If you want to do UBI, the correct implementation is:

- Give the same amount to everybody* , with no means testing to avoid it become a political football. Bill Gates gets it too. This also removes any dis-incentive to work while also collecting UBI. Otherwise congress with write up a 9000 page law about who gets how much and when, which they then hold everybody hostage to.

- Pay for it with a flat tax on all income from all sources, including capital gains, dividends and carried interest. All the money goes into a separate off-budget pool for immediate monthly distribution. Like SSI, but with no 'investing' in treasuries or anything else. Don't let the politicians get their hands on it. Money comes in and immediately goes out. This makes it self-balancing. As people reduce their work, the pool shrinks, causing some people at the margins to re-enter the workforce. As we become more productive the pool will increase, allowing more people at the margins to reduce work if they want to. The tax rate can be adjusted as necessary as we see how it's working out.

* "Everybody" certainly has nuance to it that has to be defined. Children? Green card holders? Illegal Aliens? Felons? Inmates? Citizens living abroad? This is certainly an important definition, but less important than the overall idea.

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