Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#701

Post by Shivetya » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 10:14 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

1. We have always had that but it isn't the poor at the mercy of the rich it is the poor always at the mercy of exploitation by the politicians. Government gives with one hand then takes back through fees, penalties, and taxes.

2. The primary predator are relatives and common thugs usually wrapped up into a gang environment.

3. We cannot always protect people from being stupid. The idea we can is a no win situation. All you can do is try.

America can handle a UBI but the two political parties cannot. To them it will be a means of control and a weapon. Unless #1 is solved, where the government buries people under fees, penalties, and taxes, UBI will only become a transfer of money from the right hand of government to the left hand.

UBI will require rewriting the whole structure of how the government collects money. UBI must include providing all services for individuals for free or heavily discounted.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#702

Post by cryptica » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 10:15 AM UTC

I watched the recent antitrust congressional hearing involving Facebook, Amazon, Google and Apple. From it, it's clear that many small businesses have fallen prey to anti-competitive behavior at the hands of these corporations. But the problem seems to be that these corporations are so large that they are not even capable to stop their own employees from engaging in these anti-competitive behaviors even if they had the will for it and even if they had policies in place to try to prevent it. In other words, these companies are not able to regulate themselves.

We don't let people get away with transgressions, why do we allow corporations to get away with them? If corporations are to be treated like persons under the law, they ought to be held to the same level of accountability as persons too.

If a person committed minor transgressions against millions of people, they would be held accountable. Why don't we do the same for corporations??

As it stands today, corporations have more rights than people. To change this, it's crucial that we put power back into the hands of people and the best way to do this is by giving people money.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#703

Post by JBSay » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 10:19 AM UTC

This is just the same old keynesian fallacy. You can only consume if you produce. If we produce nothing it doesn't matter how much money we have. There is nothing to consume.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#704

Post by luckylion » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 10:19 AM UTC

apexalpha wrote: post #680

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

In my country everyone who is older than 65 (or so) gets AOW, a state pension. Which is €1200 per month. There are no conditions except for having lived (not worked) in the country for at least 40 years of the 65. This is basically UBI for elderly and it has been in place since the 1960s. None of the (theoretical) issues you named have been a problem. Do some elderly spend all their AOW on a slot machine as soon as i…

> In other countries without this, such as Germany, you can find older people still having to work well into their 70s to get by.

If they weren't getting any pension (aka not having worked their entire life), they'd get welfare, which is about 1000€/month. They'd only have to work if they wanted e.g. a larger flat, or more luxuries. I assume the same is true in the Netherlands: if you get AOW and you want two cars, they don't double your pension but you're free to work and earn money to afford those cars.

The trouble of course is in expanding those programs unconditionally to everyone. If you can get by well enough with 1200€ in the Netherlands, why would a 20yo not opt to live off of the expanded AOW instead of working?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#705

Post by onetimemanytime » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 10:20 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I think the world is/will be automated enough so everyone has their most basic needs met. So if a company makes robots that make robots to do the work, that company will not be making trillions, due to high enough taxes to support everyone.

The time will come so even Google-like companies will be taxed to the wazoo

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#706

Post by IshKebab » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 10:21 AM UTC

treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

I thought the main objection to UBI is that everybody will stop working and the system will collapse. You seem to have just confirmed that point.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#707

Post by Kronen » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 10:22 AM UTC

Nice version 2.0 soon (tm). It should have been fixed with universal basic income long ago.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#708

Post by usrusr » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 10:23 AM UTC

millstone wrote: post #582

sekai wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't Already happens, with welfare. > Predators - individuals and companies will find a way to take your UBI check from you as fast as possible Already happens, with welfare. > Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. Alre…

I wonder if this post was transported from 1996? The 2020 USA welfare state is bonkers stingy and punitive: prove you have these dependents and have been looking for work for this long and have not received benefits for this period... UBI would be an absolute sea change. It is not some mild extension of "welfare" which isn't really a thing. Go in clear-eyed!

Attempts at micromanaging welfare aren't a problem exclusive to the US. And they always end bad. Receiving a minimal sum to not starve or be forced to beg or steal shouldn't be more complicated than taxing a bigger income, it should be less complicated.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#709

Post by temptemptemp111 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 10:24 AM UTC

thomasfromcdnjs wrote: post #94

tamrix wrote: post #50

UBI isn't free money. It's working for the government. You better do as the government tells you, or you're not getting your UBI payment this month. This can easily be abused.

This is pretty much the only counter argument you need to dismiss the whole concept.

Yep!

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#710

Post by luckylion » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 10:28 AM UTC

bakuninsbart wrote: post #646

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> 3. Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. They could spend it all on an addiction or just make a bad investment. Even with UBI they could still end up hungry or homeless. Will we help them? Or will we say "you had your UBI, the rest is on you". This changes the morals of how we treat people in the worst times. I think it should be p…

The parent comment said "spend it all on an addiction or just make a bad investment". What do we do with the person that gets e.g. their 1000€, spends it on a night with champagne and then has nothing to eat or pay their rent? Too outlandish for you? How about if they spend it on a new TV instead of rent, a new smartphone or a couch?

There's a reason why some people get into debt because of consumption: they don't plan reasonably. What do we do? Do we not pay them UBI but give them pocket money and keep the programs in place to cover their rent etc because they can't be trusted to take care of that with money we give them? Do we just ignore their fate and watch them go hungry and eventually homeless? Do we keep the programs in place, give them UBI and then pay their rent when they spend the UBI but didn't include the rent?