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Student group leader arrested on suspicion of inciting secession in HK

hongkongfp.com

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Re: Student group leader arrested on suspicion of inciting secession in HK

#121

Post by jagannathtech »

yashap wrote: post #112
FabHK wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point of the OP is that HK is in a fairly bad situation to survive as an independent state with one potentially hostile neighbour. Nearly 80% of HK's water supply is imported from China [1]. Only about a quarter of food imports are from China [2], so the situation there is better. But what if China were to close the land borders and impose a maritime blockade? It wouldn't be pretty. When Japan invaded Hon…

Yeah, HK independence is certainly not something that would happen SOON. But for decades, nobody thought the British Empire would give up India. After decades of protest and resistance, and shifting political landscapes, they finally did. HK protesters are likely hoping for something similar. It's a long shot, but if they stick with the resistance for long enough (like, literally decades most likely), there may final…

except the British had no other option because their homeland was ravaged due to war and the INA was planning to use the Indian soldiers returning from war. and they extracted everything they could from India and the future was only trouble. It took a bloody global scale war for the colonies to get freedom as a side effect.

Re: Student group leader arrested on suspicion of inciting secession in HK

#122

Post by [deleted] »

lostlogin wrote: post #65
non-entity wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok sorry, I read into that incorrectly then. I've read too many threads accusing people of being state actors in similar fashions recently

It’s an interesting comment history and the pro CCP angle is pushed hard. However that doesn’t mean views are necessarily always wrong - though mine are in strong opposition. @Dang has a horrible task dealing with this stuff.

[deleted]

Re: Student group leader arrested on suspicion of inciting secession in HK

#123

Post by vvpan »

fakeslimshady wrote: post #33
vvpan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "these people are funded from abroad" rhetoric is employed too often by countries trying to control their population. Without hard evidence I wouldn't trust such things. I Russia, for example it's the number one way to try to discredit anybody who disagrees with the government. Yet the government, which has essentially total control over all spheres of life, has not been able to procure any evidence.

You mean like taliban funded by US against Russia. That's what I used to think be after looking at it, the US is constantly funding destabilization efforts like this. Yes including the recent China riots. What if it was true and we were the ones fed propaganda. The truth is out there

US did fund the Taliban that's true. US has done plenty of meddling in external politics. I wouldn't compare Hong Kong citizens to the Taliban though. They are not an insurgency group. Hong Kong, as I understand, and I'm no expert, by any standard culturally and historically separate from China. Anybody aiding Hong Kong is effectively not aiding an insurgency group inside China but an independent state being overtaken by a neighboring and a culturally loosely-related country.

Re: Student group leader arrested on suspicion of inciting secession in HK

#124

Post by CogitoCogito »

supernova87a wrote: post #100
saeranv wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so impressed by these activists but at the same time feel so demoralized. The CCP has consistently acted with great hostility and any attempt to change the system through existing political mechanisms, protests, and civil disobedience. And our global institutions have been seriously weakened by the election of various far-right, nationalist politicians who have no interest in, or are actively hostile towards pro…

But let me play a moderate and ask you: Are you an HK secessionist or merely seeking to delay / live out what was promised? I.e., are you merely advocating for Hong Kong to peacefully continue the rest of its 20 years before full handover to China, under the system they've been used to? This is what was promised -- and you don't want China to prematurely erode HK's civil liberties? Or are you seeking Hong Kong's inde…

> Or are you seeking Hong Kong's independence, and a nullification of the treaty that was agreed to?

> Because if you agree that the territory belongs to China, then we're just unhappy about it coming sooner than expected, right?

By not living out the terms of the treaty until 2047, it is _China_ that is already nullifying the treaty. The whole point of the treaty was that changes to the basic law would not occur until at earliest 2047 so being "unhappy about it coming sooner than expected" is the same as being "unhappy that China is breaking the treaty". To me it is crazy to expect Hong Kongers not to be protesting such duplicitous actions by China.

> It eventually would revert to China and have all the infringement of rights, which are now just being experienced sooner.

As arcticbull pointed out ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23992800 ), it is absolutely _not_ a foregone conclusion that they would lose their current rights in 2047. The CCP might not even be able to hold out in its current form until then (ignoring currently trade and military tensions in the area, China's aging workforce is basically a population bomb). If Hong Kongers' want to stay quasi-independent, holding to the terms of the treaty is actually quite crucial. My suspicion is that the CCP sees exactly the same thing and hence why they have chosen to break the terms of the treaty to avoid having Hong Kong causing them trouble if they were to enter rough times in the future.

Re: Student group leader arrested on suspicion of inciting secession in HK

#125

Post by CogitoCogito »

LatteLazy wrote: post #98

The bigger question here is what about China? We all (those of us over 35) assumed that as they industrialised, they would gradually become democratic (in the sense of elections but also of human rights and rule of law). That's clearly not the case. The CCP seem to be more firmly in place than ever...

> We all (those of us over 35) assumed that as they industrialised, they would gradually become democratic (in the sense of elections but also of human rights and rule of law).

I think this was more like a willful delusion on the part of the supporters of such a theory. Either knowingly--so they exploit China's labor force and resources--or unknowingly--because they'd drank the cool aid offered by those trying to profit off of China.

I think we should flip the whole thing. Why would China democratize? If the rest of the world is okay with China's authoritarianism and continues to engage with China economically, why exactly shouldn't they just continue acting as they do. How much longer would apartheid have continued in South Africa, if international pressure didn't mount against it? I honestly don't know the answer to that question, but it's not some guarantee that it would have gone away, just as it's no guarantee that China will democratize. If we truly want China to democratize, we should engage with them economically with that as a _stipulation_ in some form or another. If we don't make such a stipulation, we should stop acting surprised that China does not change its system and instead accept that we are just there to economically exploit the country and that these dreams only exist to convince the rest of the world that it's acting morally even if it clearly is not.

Re: Student group leader arrested on suspicion of inciting secession in HK

#126

Post by LatteLazy »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #125
LatteLazy wrote: post #98

The bigger question here is what about China? We all (those of us over 35) assumed that as they industrialised, they would gradually become democratic (in the sense of elections but also of human rights and rule of law). That's clearly not the case. The CCP seem to be more firmly in place than ever...

> We all (those of us over 35) assumed that as they industrialised, they would gradually become democratic (in the sense of elections but also of human rights and rule of law). I think this was more like a willful delusion on the part of the supporters of such a theory. Either knowingly--so they exploit China's labor force and resources--or unknowingly--because they'd drank the cool aid offered by those trying to pro…

I actually disagree about South Africa. I think the regime itself there would have been toppled eventually but they made an active choice to go peacefully rather than for it to turn into a bloodbath 20 years later. I think this is a very interesting example because most regimes fail at that sort of pragmatism. But that's an aside, we will never know and it's just my opinion! :)

Initially we got into bed with China (I am a brit, so by we I mean Europe as well as the US) to get them out of bed with the Russians because communism. That's why there were no stipulations around democracy etc, the stipulation was basically "fuck the USSR" and they stuck to that. They should have been added when the USSR feel, but most countries were too busy dealing with their internal politics (and cheap Chinese imports supported them there).

The excuse there is that by making them richer (and getting richer ourselves, whoops) we were assisting them towards a bloodless transition. That's clearly not working. Instead, china over the last 5 years at least has regressed politically. I would 100% support action on China (and I am an internationalist and until recently quite pro china). But this is hard, we would need most of the west to work together at exactly the time it's "every man for himself" (brexit, trump).

To be honest, I am actually quite worried right now. The total refusal of countries to work together on this and climate change mean the rest of this century is very uncertain. I am 36, quite old really but I won't be dead before most of the shit has hit the fan. Yet everyone both individually and nationally are basically ignoring the oncoming train to pickup pennies from the tracks...

Re: Student group leader arrested on suspicion of inciting secession in HK

#127

Post by yorwba »

vvpan wrote: post #123
fakeslimshady wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like taliban funded by US against Russia. That's what I used to think be after looking at it, the US is constantly funding destabilization efforts like this. Yes including the recent China riots. What if it was true and we were the ones fed propaganda. The truth is out there

US did fund the Taliban that's true. US has done plenty of meddling in external politics. I wouldn't compare Hong Kong citizens to the Taliban though. They are not an insurgency group. Hong Kong, as I understand, and I'm no expert, by any standard culturally and historically separate from China. Anybody aiding Hong Kong is effectively not aiding an insurgency group inside China but an independent state being overtake…

The US funded the Taliban because they opposed the Afghan government, not because they wanted to help Afghanistan. Similarly, they're never going to help Hong Kong, but only specific groups who oppose the government. (The "culturally loosely-related country" supporting the Afghan government at the time was the Soviet Union.)

Re: Student group leader arrested on suspicion of inciting secession in HK

#128

Post by dumb1224 »

ksec wrote: post #104
dumb1224 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A HK friend of mine who's strongly opposing CCP told me independence isn't what most HK citizens want (a hoax even quoting his words). It was a merely a weaponised piece of propaganda by the CCP mouthpieces. By now I can't tell whether he's right or not only from reading main stream media articles. Also curious to learn what will be the ultimate goal.

It started as a hoax, because people naively believe the sanity of CCP or HK Government to even act with any decency. The sentiment gradually shifted, because they lost whatever hope or trust that is left with the government. It is still not a mainstream view, but it isn't so much a "hoax" like it was same time last year.

Any links to the origin of these movements? Personally it seems a very bizarre strategy to use independence to bargain (it will for sure provoke rather than evoking 'decency'). Any chinese would agree I think. I lived in Ireland for nearly a decade and the wounds of the Trouble never heal between the very Irish people. And Ireland is way more democratic and tolerant than China.

Re: Student group leader arrested on suspicion of inciting secession in HK

#129

Post by dumb1224 »

throw443563 wrote: post #117
dumb1224 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A HK friend of mine who's strongly opposing CCP told me independence isn't what most HK citizens want (a hoax even quoting his words). It was a merely a weaponised piece of propaganda by the CCP mouthpieces. By now I can't tell whether he's right or not only from reading main stream media articles. Also curious to learn what will be the ultimate goal.

The problem is the protesters were waving UK flags. Can you imagine if the protesters in Kashmir were waving UK flags?

People are emotional and ideological with these matters. I don't think it's HK people's fault. However I do think understanding and communication is the key. Waging wars on ideological differences is toxic and hiding real issues. E.g a lot of sensible conversation has been drowned in the noise of social media.

Re: Student group leader arrested on suspicion of inciting secession in HK

#130

Post by makomk »

keiferski wrote: post #82
BelleOfTheBall wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is his plan for Hong Kong moving forward? I'd be interested to see what a local activist thinks could be a solution to their "China problem", especially considering that a country as big and powerful isn't going to simply back off. His fight is a tough one and I have great respect for a person so young to commit to it so fully.

The book came out in February but at the moment he seems to be running for the legislature. His overall strategy seems to be to drum up international support for HK democracy, which will then (in theory) pressure the CCP. He intends to run in a primary for the pro-democracy camp that will choose candidates for the Legislative Council vote on Sept. 6. "If more people vote for us ... it could generate more pressure and…

He's now been barred from standing for election by China. The message is clear: there is no reform possible from within the system, no way for Hong Kong to retain its values whilst part of China, and any promises from the Chinese government are worthless the moment it's convenient to abandon them.
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