Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#301

Post by throwawaygh » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:27 AM UTC

aahhahahaaa wrote: post #137

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

Why give free school to everyone, libraries? Clearly a rich person doesn't need those either? Public services should be public. There's extreme social value in equal access and you reduce an extreme amount of bureaucracy and debate in the process. >If I got free money I wouldn’t increase spending, I would reduce work. WE SHOULD ALL REDUCE WORK. Sorry for the caps but we need to collectively get into this mindset. We'…

Literally the opposite. We do so much useless work that our productivity curve remains flat even as technology makes us extraordinarily productive at the tiny fraction of actually meaningful and necessary work

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#302

Post by rzwitserloot » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:27 AM UTC

xivzgrev wrote: post #72

Honest question - how does one prevent inflation with UBI? If the market price of an apartment is $500, and suddenly everyone gets UBI, the landlord would raise the price as much as he can, say $1000. People on UBI are in the same relative position as before. They still can’t get the apartment because there’s enough people who have the UBI plus something else and can pay $1000.

'inflation' is probably not the right term; money is created and destroyed more or less at will by the financial system as set forth by the nation's laws. UBI is not 'funded' by just turning on the printing presses and letting 'er rip.

But, yes, of course, if there is a scarce good (there isn't enough for everybody) and due to UBI now everybody can afford this scarce good, then... guess what, no they can't.

But that's economy at work, and entices the populace to work, so they can supplement their UBI and get scarce stuff they want.

Perhaps you mean that certain goods are so price elastic they will just cost whatever it needs to cost to squeeze every buck out of the lower-income populace.

That IS a risk, but I'm not sure the current common western economic model is any different; the _vast_ majority of these economies do have a minimum wage already, and the majority of the workforce... works, or otherwise enjoys an income that is somewhat close to minimum wage at least, leading to the same problems.

Seems silly to put the onus on UBI to solve problems that aren't particular to UBI, no?

Note that these problems are solvable, and UBI can actually help solve them: Due to UBI it is _much_ simpler to just pick up your stuff, and move to a place that is in the toilet, economy-wise: A backwater with extremely low housing prices, nearly free land, and no jobs. With UBI, hey, you can make a decent living because your UBI bucks go a lot farther out in these boonies, which should push said boonies up.

It also moves negotiating powers to the workforce: Instead of companies that are offering jobs have to compete with the notion of being either destitute/homeless, or having to jump through hoops to prove that you are unable to find work (which is how many western economies are set up today), the job offerers are competing with 'no job, live on basic UBI'. This should allow the workforce to for example demand that they get to work from home a lot more, opening doors to letting them live in places with cheaper housing.

And then, if the -entire nation-, from stem to stern, has rents set up to gauge those living on UBI alone or on UBI+scraps, there's something very wrong with your nation. Go make some laws.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#303

Post by alexilliamson » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:27 AM UTC

jtlienwis wrote: post #258

I am opposed to UBI. I want smart people to have more money. I want less smart people to have less money, provided they have enough to live on. A smart person might invest in books, study and self improvement. Then those industries that create these will be stimulated. That is what you want. Less smart people might spend their money on lottery tickets, junk food, booze etc. Those industries would be stimulated by UBI…

I want compassionate people to have more money. I want less compassionate people to have less money. A compassionate person will invest their fellow humans. A person lacking compassion will buy themselves trinkets and hoard wealth. I came to this conclusion when reading this borderline hateful comment.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#304

Post by rmorey » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:27 AM UTC

TimTheTinker wrote: post #168

antiutopian wrote: post #55

There is not going to be a Capitalism 2.0. Capitalism was progressive for a time, but it has gradually created the conditions for its replacement by democratic socialism. Those conditions are highly socialized production processes (not individual crafts) plus a gigantic class of wage laborers with an interest in a collective approach. A democratically planned economy is entirely possible and would outpace the massive…

> democratically planned economy Sounds like an absolute nightmare on anything but the most local scale. Think about the number of economic decisions made daily by individuals in a free-market economy. That’s many orders of magnitude more than the number of decisions that could be made by a democratically elected group of representatives at the federal level, even if assisted by computer systems. And that’s not even…

democratic socialism does not mandate a command economy see: market socialism, anarcho-syndicalism

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#305

Post by dev_tty01 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:27 AM UTC

peacefulhat wrote: post #284

> "Even the most hardcore anti-capitalists have to give respect to how the combination of capitalism and technology has worked to lift most of the world out poverty and provided us with the security and comfort only kings enjoyed just a few century’s ago." I really don't have to. The best tools in software are free and open source, and if I contrast that with the tools which aren't it's really obvious that there are…

>Research, engineering and trade are some of the real reasons for rapid growth.

And how is that not the combination of capitalism and technology? Trade is capitalism and research and engineering create technology, as you point out, funded by capitalism.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#306

Post by holdtheline » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:28 AM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #282

UBI is Communism Lite. Very likely ends badly, as voters seek to increase UBI to infinity. Politicians will get reelected on the basis of how much they're willing to increase UBI. Probably causes a currency crisis as well. Unfortunately the Silicon Valley crowd seems to be beholden to this flawed idea. Voters and politicians will not restrain themselves if this tool is made available.

UBI is Communism Lite.

Communism is when the government owns all property and all factors of production. UBI does not involve the government taking over anything.

Very likely ends badly, as voters seek to increase UBI to infinity.

Considering how much doubt there is among UBI in the first place, I don't know why you would assume politicians and voters would just want to endlessly increase the size of monthly payments.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#307

Post by jnwatson » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:29 AM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #275

Rather than UBI, why not add supplemental salary to important industries? Instead of handing out a ton of money for free, we could ask citizens to work in the industries with the best long-term pay-off for the economy, things like education, research, maintenance, infrastructure, healthcare, environmental restoration, energy improvements, etc. If these jobs were more highly paid, our brightest minds might be pulled t…

The biggest problem is that you have a central planner deciding what the “good” jobs are.

There are more straightforward mechanisms for the government to invest in future-oriented endeavors.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#308

Post by peacefulhat » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:29 AM UTC

justinzollars wrote: post #242

This is going to explode in our faces. Why would the rest of the world finance us (the citizens of the United States) to sit around and watch Netflix all day? Put another way, someone has to buy the debt we are issuing. Today our debt is sold to savers in China, and to other hard working individuals across the world. We have no means of paying back the debt we are issuing, so we are monetizing the debt through a mech…

This is just ignorance. Almost all US treasury bonds are owned by hedge funds, and most of the rest are owned by governments. Retail investors are a tiny share. Whether the hedge funds and governments continue to buy them is not related to how many hours of Netflix Americans watch. US govt can honor its treasury bonds because we have a productive economy. Consider the total assets of the United States, valued at over $200 trillion vs our tiny debt of $20 trillion.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#309

Post by megameter » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:29 AM UTC

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

Henry George had it right: Use land value tax to fund UBI. Abracadabra, all the birds get killed with one stone: Real estate prices calm down, income inequality calms down, environmental costs are valued into use, and poverty is eliminated.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#310

Post by dahfizz » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:29 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #140

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

> Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... The answer is that it's much simpler to send everyone a check. The rich person will pay more in taxes than the amount of their check, so it doesn't matter. Indeed, the arguments that we should do otherwise are to the benefit of the rich, because the proposed cutoff invariably comes somewhere in the middle income r…

> The answer is that it's much simpler to send everyone a check.

Seems even easier to increase the standard tax deduction we already have and are familiar with. Then you can increase tax rates to make sure those evil rich people don't see any benefit.