Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#211

Post by Ericson2314 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:52 AM UTC

ardit33 wrote: post #201

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

A carbon tax is essentially a sales tax... for high carbon products. i.e. polluting cars, red meat, airplane travel, etc... etc... The problem with 'sales tax' is that are regressive. You are essentially taxing the millionaire and the homeless guy with the same rate.

That why you pay people right back! Then it's not regressive. How are people failing to understand this....

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#212

Post by Talanes » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:52 AM UTC

zuhayeer wrote: post #80

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

It will definitely change job markets. I see driving for Uber as a "UBI" in the sense that it allows you to make money if you have a car and know how to drive (I know not everyone can front that money, point is just for illustration). Now what has happened to the broader labor market? Well, if you don't like your minimum wage job at present, you can always drive Uber (and at any time you want at that). That would mak…

People who driver Uber for a living aren't duing it "anytime they want" though. They have to time their working hours to places and times of high demand to actually make money.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#213

Post by sroussey » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:52 AM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #170

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

Giving everyone the same amount is symbolically useful, because it's a way in which all citizens are equal. Everyone gets the same amount and what can be fairer than that? But, practically, anything a UBI plan gives you can be undone with an equal and opposite tax. The net effect after taxes is what matters and it's going to redistribute money or there's no point in doing it. Some people pay more taxes than others an…

As a landlord, knowing everyone can afford higher rent means rent increases for everyone!

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#214

Post by campers » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:53 AM UTC

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

One reason is simplicity in managing it, reducing government costs.

For a middle to upper income earner their overall tax rate would be the same, the income tax rates could be adjusted so someone on $100k still pays the same overall amount of tax.

Second it is gets rid of the high effective tax rates that low income earners deal with. While low income earners pay low or no income tax, they lose their benefits the more they earn, so a dollar earned could mean up to a dollar less in benefits, which is a disincentive to work. Something that is often missed by the people who say having a UBI would be a disincentive to work.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#215

Post by ATsch » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:53 AM UTC

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

Means testing access to resources always, without exception:

- ends up being more expensive than just giving to everyone

- prevents some people who need it but are somehow obstructed by the bureaucracy from receiving it

- gets it's conditions increasingly narrowed to reduce the costs until it stops helping anyone

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#216

Post by jknoepfler » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:53 AM UTC

I support UBI broadly speaking, but one thing I worry about with UBI are the unforeseen consequences on immigration. Say UBI is in place for citizens, but not for greencard holders. You've created a massive incentive for non-UBI workers to enter the labor force, and a massive incentive for companies to import as many workers as they can (who do not have access to UBI, and therefore cannot negotiate a higher wage). I'm not sure I want to live in a country where UBI "citizens" pay for cheaply produced goods and services made by non-UBI migrants desperate to earn citizenship, that seems like precisely the kind of two-tier economy UBI is designed to avoid.

Anyway, food for thought.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#217

Post by RickJWagner » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:53 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #166

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

I don't see how this would really work. A carbon tax in an ideal situation is just a consumption tax. This means that it's the consumer that pays it. Rich people don't eat more food nor do they drive dozens of cars at once. If we want this carbon tax to offset our greenhouse emissions then that means it will necessarily disproportionately impact poor people. And then you want to turn around and pay that money back to…

It could be a conspicuous consumption tax.

Yachts, for example. Or private jets. Or even huge houses. We could tax the snot out of all of these. It would probably make them only more desirable status symbols, and thus stimulate the tax.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#218

Post by gonational » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:53 AM UTC

UBI is transfer payments, plain and simple. It is socialism. It is a rich man’s trick to delete the middle class.

Why hasn’t any coalition of companies or rich people created a utopia with UBI? They could easily buy up tens of thousands of acres of property and do all of this fantastic stuff... but they don’t. Why? Because they are the ones who produce. Socialism is about taking from those who produce and giving it to those who don’t. The only way to keep that going long-term is by force.

Use some common sense.

Don’t say nobody warned you.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#219

Post by gigaftp » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:54 AM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #191

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

> A UBI paid for with a carbon tax This can’t work for one very obvious reason: The incentive is supposed to be to reduce carbon emissions, but a UBI funded by carbon emissions has the opposite incentive.

As long as the UBI payout is not tied to the total carbon tax income I don't see how it messes with the incentives.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#220

Post by pgreenwood » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:54 AM UTC

I support the idea of UBI in principle, but I think it needs to be combined with a land value tax in order to work as intended. Rents are charged at the highest the market will bear, so the UBI could just flow into the hands of landlords, and the people who it is supposed to help being no better off.