Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#111

Post by tomrod » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:21 AM UTC

glitchc wrote: post #98

> just a few century’s ago. When an academic makes such an egregious error on spelling (centuries?!?), I just have to stop reading at that point. It casts doubt on the veracity of the arguments in the paper.

The best academic I know is dyslexic. It isn't me. The guy just finished the second of a planned five volumes on PhD level mathematics that, in my view, will become the mathematical encyclopedia for applied mathematics in coming years. He has to work 5X as hard as me and others I know to write. He is one of the most prolific mathematicians I know (averages ~1 paper/month).

Your complaint is a book-cover issue. The quality of the argument is independent of an occasional typographical error.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#112

Post by lifeformed » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:22 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

Then the garbage job would start paying $66k a year.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#113

Post by zhoujianfu » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:22 AM UTC

jay_kyburz wrote: post #79

I understand and agree with how a UBI will benefit those that are currently falling between the cracks and not receiving any assistance. I can also see the benefits of greatly simplifying the social security system. (If it was implemented in a way that was actually simple. i.e. no distinction between sick, unemployed, old, lazy) But I don't understand why people don't believe the UBI will just become the new definiti…

People will always compare themselves to their peers, it’s true.

But there’s a pretty big objective difference between the poorest person having $0 and the poorest person having, say, $20,000 a year.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#114

Post by alex_young » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:22 AM UTC

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it.

Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago:

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis...

They did a followup 5 years later:

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis...

It seems like there are too many entrenched players to make this a reality unfortunately.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#115

Post by bernawil » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:23 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

   Now a garbage man says “I’m not gonna be a garbage man anymore, I can do something I love now, like a music teacher that pays $30k”

"wait it's gone to $25K... to $15K.. aand it's gone". Other people might have the same idea and if more people want to become music teachers, music teacher salaries go down and garbageman keeps picking garbage.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#116

Post by tomrod » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:23 AM UTC

dopylitty wrote: post #49

People don’t need money. People need basics like housing, food, and medical care. No UBI scheme is going to work in an economic system like the one in the U.S. that isn’t capable of providing those things. It’s not like there’s a shortage of food or shelter now and yet we still have homeless people while homes sit empty. We still have hungry people while farmers are destroying their crops. The economic system is the…

I need money. Money gives me the freedom to seek after my choice of housing, food, and medical care.

One common refrain I've heard is that the US already has a UBI, but it is $0.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#117

Post by jjoonathan » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:23 AM UTC

blackflame7000 wrote: post #88

jay_kyburz wrote: post #79

I understand and agree with how a UBI will benefit those that are currently falling between the cracks and not receiving any assistance. I can also see the benefits of greatly simplifying the social security system. (If it was implemented in a way that was actually simple. i.e. no distinction between sick, unemployed, old, lazy) But I don't understand why people don't believe the UBI will just become the new definiti…

Exactly. The key to making people happier is not to give them money, but create more jobs that give people meaning and purpose in their lives.

If a person doesn't have money, helping him is not a job.

If a person has money, helping him is a job.

UBI creates jobs by "un-freezing" demand that was previously frozen out of the system due to poverty.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#118

Post by thoughtstheseus » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:24 AM UTC

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

That means I'll get paid more when I do work. Thanks!

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#119

Post by ClumsyPilot » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:24 AM UTC

drummer wrote: post #62

UBI is extremely dangerous as long as governments exist. Take what China is doing with their citizen score and it's not hard to imagine what could go wrong. "...imagine how easy it would be for such a government that was also providing a basic income to its citizens to manipulate their citizens based on that basic income that they depended on. If they can deny citizens access to things like public transportation base…

Feels a lot like no fly lists, or holywood blocklist during rhe red scare

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#120

Post by thephyber » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:24 AM UTC

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

The most likely implementation in the existing US federal government is a negative income tax.

> I definitely would choose not to work or work less if that money came free from government.

You aren't alone, so your $1200 would not go as far in that future as it does now. There would be some inflation (perhaps only localized increased costs to some industries), but I'd suspect that people working less would be a feature, not a bug.

UBI doesn't make people not want to work at all. Work provides income, meaning, and dignity. Some people would move from industries which have lots of crappy manual jobs (like janitorial services) to industries which are currently only hobbies, but with UBI subsidies could be sustainable as a career. I imagine lots more Etsy shops.