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Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

sticerd.lse.ac.uk

201–210 of 310 posts

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#201

Easy answer: because expenses are higher for poor people. Instead of buying a home, the lower class rent their whole life. Instead of their daddy giving them a home, the middle class pay interest on a mortgage most of their life. Instead of buying a 20-pack of $necessary_product that costs $20 and will last for months, the lower class buy a 2-pack that costs $5 and lasts a couple weeks because they need the $15 to pa…

Great point.

Don’t forget that local government also taxes the poor with predatory fees and fines for minor infractions.

- parking tickets - car insurance fines - cash bail

Sources: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-04-20-me-60640-... https://theappeal.org/fines-and-fees-explained-bf4e05d188bf/

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/incomejails.html

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#202
post #102

The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes thought, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots…

I'm not trying to generalize, because I know poor people who are poor through no fault of their own (and we should provide public support for them), but I also know a larger number of people who contributed to their own dire financial situation and it wasn't because they couldn't afford quality boots, it was because they over-extended themselves with new cars, a way too big house, the big screen TVs and expensive tri…

Perhaps proper education and examples of personal finance and budgeting, even in the face of celebrity promos and sales sales sales, could prevent some of the next generation from doing the same. I'd argue that you're oversimplifying those that got themselves stuck. They possibly lacked caring or supportive parents, stable childhood, stable role models that aren't rich, quality education on issues like personal finance, etc.

When things are simplified it's often easier to draw conclusions, but the method of simplification and how far you go will induce bias. Maybe someone's car was hit and totalled. They couldn't afford to insure it while working 2 jobs with no healthcare/benefits and trying to support a kid they can't afford (or legally abort). They now have a medical bill for $2000 due to injuries sustained, no car to commute to work, no job if they can't commute, and no way to afford an incoming baby regardless. They jump to a dealership the next morning and have a car loan signed by 10am, then back to work having missed hours (that they won't get paid for). Then they had to decide between food and the car loan before even considering the medical debt. Maybe they had medical debt from a prior issue that tanked their credit score and left them with a 20%+ loan they just signed. Maybe they have a concussion or the pregnant woman needs time off work to heal (Paid? Unpaid? will there be a job to return to?) Regardless, they didn't have the resources, time, money or energy to respond to the crash and it sunk them into thousands of debt before they got their test results back from the medical appointment.

Sucks, but is a very real issue for many Americans. With proper regulations (with teeth) for:

benefits/sick leave or PTO/wiggle room to deal with emergencies outside of work,

laws to cut down interest rates or free people from bad/old debt that has them spiralling including higher education or Community College coursework in personal finance or budgeting (and better career/job prospects),

proper funding for universal healthcare to stop medical debts and increase use of basci services to prevent major cases and long term costly health issues,

support for families (including family planning) and greater access to (and no loss of pride from using) SNAP/food stamps,

a plan for childcare

education from a young age on personal finance and other useful practices

We could see improvements in many Americans daily lives. Often, edge case or minority groups feel the system has left them behind, forgotten them, or even betrayed them. In America, that's true. The system will help those who help themselves but life does not discriminate when dealing out misfortunes and it can be very expensive to be poor for reasons mentioned in other comments like the boots story. Citizens will continue fighting even if they are fighting for the right to die from lack of support, can't reason with it.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you asking what people would be able to use $250k for?

No, I'm asking why it would be structured like that. It seems like an open invitation to just raid and squander it. If you took the same amount of money you could, just as an example, permanently endow a professional educator for every 20 births, which begins paying off right away, instead of decades later.

I think spending the money on a “professional educator” would be squandering it. This country has huge inequities, and I don’t think you can solve it by throwing money at college educated (disproportionately white) people.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#204
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your general assessment, but I'd disagree with your conclusion about capitalism. The defining characteristic of capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. As long as that ownership isn't equally distributed, that's exploitative by definition, because profits go to owners "for free" -- the owners don't have to work for those profits. This isn't really the case if ownership is equally…

I disagree with your reasoning. It appears to assume that the company or factory concerned has always existed. There must have been some point at which said company did not exist at first, then came into being. The person or people who started that company were likely to have begun it by; - performing any and all research required into starting the company - acquiring the premises (or starting from home/garage) - doi…

You missed the point. You're focusing on the management of the company, but I was talking about ownership.

I own shares of companies both directly and indirectly. Because of this ownership, I receive a (small) part of those companies' profits. I don't have to do anything to receive that profit -- I do get it for free.

(And yes, I'm a partial owner here because I didn't spend some money I earned in the past on other things instead. But why exactly should I be rewarded for that? It's far from obvious, and the usual rationalizations all have weaknesses. Keep in mind that many people who receive such profits didn't work for them at all: they inherited the ownership.)

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once a business or service is built around it, yes. But This likely can be solved via something that doesn't have to be profitable, just successful. Universal basic income could cover the gap. Stronger unions and enforcement of stronger regulations like curbing interest rates, providing personal finance resources for free like a financial adviser or community college course, or shoring up meals programs for poor kids…

> Universal basic income could cover the gap. UBI does not solve the problem outlined by jfrunyon that > expenses are higher for poor people.

No, but that isn't the only tool or lever to pull. It's an idea around a rising tide lifts all boats where an extra $1k a month or baseline income could bridge gaps so instead of choosing between food, car, and insurance this month the household can cover all 3 and maybe get out for some ice cream and have a human experience.

There are fair criticisms of UBI but it would not be acting in a vacuum. There could be policy and actions to support the goals of UBI. Everything is more complicated than it seems.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The poor have gotten slightly better off, the wealthy have gotten dramatically better off, and the gap between the two has widened. That's a fairly common perception. Most often summarized in "the rich get richer, the poor poorer" (at least on a relative basis). I was born in a Communist country, and I have another perception. Poverty has different levels. The most abject poverty is when you go hungry. My family di…

Food insecurity is not specific to communist countries, it's a massive problem in capitalist countries today. The US is the richest country in the world and 37 million people experienced food insecurity in 2018 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_in_the_United_States

"Food insecurity" is nowhere near the same thing as going to another city to stand in line for potatoes and onions.

On the whole, decentralized distribution is always better than when centrally controlled

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#207
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor people don’t go on airplane vacations or own houses. Poor people don’t have bank accounts. You don’t know poor people. You know people who live beyond their means. Poor people are in Section 8 housing or various other housing vouchers.

You know people who live beyond their means. Right. People who lived beyond their means and ended up poor. Or are you saying if you once had money for these things, it's impossible to ever be poor again?

> ended up poor

I think we have to establish what it means to "end up poor" in this context.

I'm barely living within my means. I have a decent house, a very nice car, a respectable gaming PC with VR, and recently got into hobby RC cars. I take at least one 1-2 week vacation a year out of state.

But...I have $0 in my savings account, and less than $50K in my 401(k). I'm 38 and only started contributing to a 401(k) 6 years ago after I finished my CS degree and started working jobs that pay decently.

But I also have $0 in credit card debt. I tend to spend all my extra money, but no further. I'm not taking on extra debt (Beyond my mortgage and car loan) to fund my activities.

Would you consider me poor? I am after all, barely living within my means. Because of my spending habits, I'm almost living paycheck-to-paycheck.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you've identified is that the poor have gotten better off due to technical innovations reducing the price of basic goods and enhancing their functionality -- while on average wages have tracked inflation. This is a systemic improvement. Meanwhile, the rich have gotten exponentially richer, as public policies have shifted ever more in their favor. For much the 1900s the top income tax bracket in the US wa…

>For much the 1900s the top income tax bracket in the US was over 80%, Top tax is not the same as effective tax rate. For example, when Reagan lowered the top brack from 50% to 37% while also closing taxable shelters,the amount the rich paid actually went up. The CBO has all this type of data. >This is a result of social policy. It's more the result of changes in the world economy. Computers have made skilled jobs va…

>Top tax is not the same as effective tax rate. For example, when Reagan lowered the top brack from 50% to 37% while also closing taxable shelters,the amount the rich paid actually went up.

This is something a lot of folks miss. The US has the most progressive tax system in the western world. The top brackets pay a much larger percentage than anywhere else.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#209
post #165

Easy answer: because expenses are higher for poor people. Instead of buying a home, the lower class rent their whole life. Instead of their daddy giving them a home, the middle class pay interest on a mortgage most of their life. Instead of buying a 20-pack of $necessary_product that costs $20 and will last for months, the lower class buy a 2-pack that costs $5 and lasts a couple weeks because they need the $15 to pa…

This is a great definition of what I consider to be the 'poor tax'.. Not to mention if they ever get un-poor they don't have the knowledge to 'build wealth' until they start slowly learning it or from a mentor. We would better off teaching 'home finances, interest and banking' classes instead of Algebra 3 or geometry 2 (for 99% of people)

Define "we". Many a rich man was made by picking a poor man's pocket.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Universal basic income could cover the gap. UBI does not solve the problem outlined by jfrunyon that > expenses are higher for poor people.

No, but that isn't the only tool or lever to pull. It's an idea around a rising tide lifts all boats where an extra $1k a month or baseline income could bridge gaps so instead of choosing between food, car, and insurance this month the household can cover all 3 and maybe get out for some ice cream and have a human experience. There are fair criticisms of UBI but it would not be acting in a vacuum. There could be poli…

> It's an idea around a rising tide lifts all boats where an extra $1k a month or baseline income could bridge gaps

Prices increase in this case - that is how markets work.

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