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When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

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Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#71

Post by briandear »

jlmorton wrote: post #46
ryanlol wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do app stores need separate regulations? > They are the very definitions of predatory competition squashing monopolies. But they aren’t, this is a rather competitive space.

Competitive? It is an oligopoly with tacit collusion on price fixing. This is the exact reason why anti-trust legislation exists. A competitive market would be one in which the platform providers were forced to divest from the app markets, and support competing app markets which meet requirements, and which actively compete on features and price. If cars only supported gasoline from manufacturer gas stations, and 95%…

Can you prove price fixing? Or collusion? If you want to make the claim, then let’s see the proof.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#72

Post by wlesieutre »

zamadatix wrote: post #26
wlesieutre wrote: post #7

Does this mean if there's a developer I don't like, I can buy their stuff and refund it to arbitrarily cost them money at no cost to myself and there's nothing they can do about it? That seems ... not great, especially these days. What happens when mobs of internet morons decide review bombing isn't sufficient and realize Apple will help them cause direct financial harm instead?

If you do this often Apple will ban your account. If you don't do this often it's not a problem.

Will they? In some jurisdictions they are required by law to grant refunds. In others, they still have very little incentive to control refund fraud, what with the fact that they're still making money rather than losing it.

It would be one thing if they said "We're keeping the credit card processing fees so that we don't lose money," but to keep the whole 30% cut is just petty.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#73

Post by cwhiz »

bronzeage wrote: post #8

App stores need heavy regulations. It's not only Apple but Google and even steam to a small extent. Apple is of course the biggest offender as they heavily guard their monopoly with code signing enforcement. This shouldn't have been legal. They are the very definitions of predatory competition squashing monopolies.

>Apple is of course the biggest offender as they heavily guard their monopoly with code signing enforcement.

What monopoly? Apple controls maybe 8% of the desktop/notebook market and ~13% of the smartphone market. They don't even come close to qualifying as a monopoly.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#74

Post by atarian »

I don't understand something here.. let's say I sold an app to someone for $100.

1. Someone pays me $100.

2. Apple takes 30%, so I only get $70.

3. Customer asks for refund and gets back $100.

4. Apple takes back the $70 from me.

If Apple was skimming 30% off from the start, how does that affect me during a refund?

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#75

Post by andrewxdiamond »

sukilot wrote: post #45
gregoriol wrote: post #4

Not saying it's exactly the same situation, but Stripe keeps their fees when you refund a payment

It's not the same at all. Payment processing is work, regardless of direction. Marketing fees for non-sales is payment for nothing.

....but Apple processes payments for App Store purchases? And they pay to maintain the store. Storage, bandwidth, updates, those are all “work” as well. I do think 30% is quite high, but this comment seems to consider Apple a charity house that should provide these services for free

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#76

Post by bzb3 »

sukilot wrote: post #45
gregoriol wrote: post #4

Not saying it's exactly the same situation, but Stripe keeps their fees when you refund a payment

It's not the same at all. Payment processing is work, regardless of direction. Marketing fees for non-sales is payment for nothing.

Pretty sure that 30% also covers payment processing

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#77

Post by SllX »

ejolto wrote: post #51
zamadatix wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you do this often Apple will ban your account. If you don't do this often it's not a problem.

What if you have a big Twitter following and ask them to do it?

Sounds like a lawsuit in the making if the harm is great enough.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#78

Post by dogma1138 »

sukilot wrote: post #49
bena wrote: post #39

I don't think the issue is that Apple is keeping its fee even with a return. That on some level is fair. They are providing a service to the developer. The bigger question is whether their cut should be 30% in the first place. 30% was chosen by the first store of this type and it's just never been questioned by platforms. I just read that Valve recently changed their agreement to be a sliding scale based on sales (30…

> all do a 30/70 split on digital sales. Consistency which is only possible in an environment of collusion.

Not as much collusion as simply lack of competition.

You don’t have any other options for most of their respective platform and there isn’t enough incentive to compete on the pricing.

Also even when there is competition there are rules that prevent you from lowering pricing in one store vs the other (there are some exceptions) so if you end up say selling a game on the PC and you set the retail price as $60 and you launch it on 3 different digital content distribution platforms while you might make more money on one platform than the other there is no difference for the end consumer so there isn’t an actual competitive incentive to reduce your cut as a digital distributor unless you think you can get an exclusivity deal.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#79

Post by chownie »

ryanlol wrote: post #43
_nalply wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competitive between developers and perhaps platforms but absolutely a monopoly for iOS.

This is as nonsensical as complaining about Disney having a monopoly in Disneyland.

It is a false comparison to put Disney land (owned by Disney) and iOS devices (owned by Apple customers) side by side.

We already had battles on this front, Microsoft had to offer competing browsers for some time at least in the EU. Manufacturing the platform ceases to afford dictatorship when the device reaches a large enough share of the population imo.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#80

Post by [deleted] »

glofish wrote: post #61

Reading the thread here is an interesting datapoint: https://twitter.com/twolivesleft/status/1288491970248077314 - Since 2011 Codea has had 1,768 refunds - Estimate it cost us ~$8,000 USD to pay Apple’s 30% - A single day in 2017 saw 193 returns and I have no idea why or how that’s possible later: > Yes, we’ve had a few days of negative revenue in the last few years due to people refunding Codea. Apple keeps their 30…

[deleted]
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