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Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#51

Post by Robotbeat »

Eugeleo wrote: post #39
bakuninsbart wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all of the extreme allegations are levelled by Zenz, Uighur seperatist organizations, and ASPI, an australian think-tank. Other sources do include people visiting there[1], including news-teams[2] and third-nation observers[3], but there claims usually get casually dismissed as a bad source for one reason or the other. Chinese media obviously isn't a good source either. Now Zenz is an evangelical fundamentalis…

Not sure why you are getting downvoted — I didn't know about this lack of sources and took all of the information about the region for granted. Thanks for reminding me that even things that sound plausible (or especially those things) need to be reviewed, toO!

Do not take a post on HN for granted that only cites a Medium post, a YouTube video, and Chinese state media as evidence AGAINST wrongdoing by the Chinese govt.

Actual journalistic sources, based on interviews with former detainees, etc, validate the claim that China is undertaking a campaign of demographic genocide against predominantly Muslim minorities: https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#52

Post by dang »

throwaway1997 wrote: post #31
dang wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single-purpose accounts are not allowed on HN, and neither are accounts that use HN primarily for political or ideological battle. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... Your account looks like it has been doing both of those things. Please don't do that on HN.

Thanks dang. I will cease to use this throwaway account and therefore no longer speak about China truthfully due to safety concerns.

I don't see how following the HN guidelines would create any safety concerns.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#53

Post by dang »

biscotti wrote: post #45
dang wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's common for people to conclude that we're moderating the comments we personally disagree with, and to draw personal conclusions about us based on that. I've been called Hitler, Stalin, and everything in between. These conclusions are all bogus. We don't moderate HN based on any of that; we moderate it based on the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .

I've read the guidelines. I do not see how what I wrote breaches them. The first half enquires on reckless group-think in tech that would bring about a situation such as Xinjlang, I wrote this in the hope those behind it could engage to allay my fears, provide context or offer links to discussions on the recent politicisation of our software. I made a submission when purges were enacted 50 days ago - it was instantly…

If you go from Antifa to Germany in the 1920s to Ubuntu to China to Muslims in the UK and "London is majority non-native" to Bill Gates, you're posting generic ideological rants to HN. Not interesting, not what this site is for, and definitely against the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#54

Post by cafard »

biscotti wrote: post #48
pasabagi wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy developed in a world of totalitarian regimes, and mostly thrived because having officials vulnerable to election cuts down on corruption and incompetence while building government legitimacy and stability. Totalitarian states tend to have a good run, where they have a good leader and energetic administration, then they become lethargic and dysfunctional, and because there's no mechanism to correct this, the…

The democracy of Britain was foisted upon us by D'Israeli following his deposition of Robert Peel. The teeth was taken from all monarchies, or BDFLs, after Bolsheviks were sent from Germany to murder Tsar Nicholas and his family in an act that ultimately condemned 66m Russians. In my opinion if you want a stable democracy you enfranchise those who would look to a future beyond their own. e.g. one vote per family. If…

Benjamin Disraeli threw Peel off his horse? Who knew? And let me say that your orthography leads me to wonder what axes you have to grind.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#55

Post by biscotti »

cafard wrote: post #54
biscotti wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The democracy of Britain was foisted upon us by D'Israeli following his deposition of Robert Peel. The teeth was taken from all monarchies, or BDFLs, after Bolsheviks were sent from Germany to murder Tsar Nicholas and his family in an act that ultimately condemned 66m Russians. In my opinion if you want a stable democracy you enfranchise those who would look to a future beyond their own. e.g. one vote per family. If…

Benjamin Disraeli threw Peel off his horse? Who knew? And let me say that your orthography leads me to wonder what axes you have to grind.

No particular axe. I would just rather survive the Great Filter. Wouldn't you?

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#56

Post by biscotti »

dang wrote: post #53
biscotti wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read the guidelines. I do not see how what I wrote breaches them. The first half enquires on reckless group-think in tech that would bring about a situation such as Xinjlang, I wrote this in the hope those behind it could engage to allay my fears, provide context or offer links to discussions on the recent politicisation of our software. I made a submission when purges were enacted 50 days ago - it was instantly…

If you go from Antifa to Germany in the 1920s to Ubuntu to China to Muslims in the UK and "London is majority non-native" to Bill Gates, you're posting generic ideological rants to HN. Not interesting, not what this site is for, and definitely against the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .

I disagree profusely. I'm aware it goes against the narrative but I took the time to write it, apologies you find my experience and concerns uninteresting.

We had someone in here exclaim you'd censor those who held the opposing view so I guess we found balance in that sense.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#57

Post by MR4D »

nujabe wrote: post #43
OliverTowers wrote: post #2

Everyone is too afraid to even comment

Because dang will ban anyone espousing anti-Chinese sentiments, under the guise of 'provoking nationalistic flame wars'. I truly believe there is a conflict of interest somewhere between YC and the CCP because the knee jerk sensorship is quite disturbing.

Interesting viewpoint considering your comment is still visible.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#58

Post by dirtyid »

Robotbeat wrote: post #50
bakuninsbart wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all of the extreme allegations are levelled by Zenz, Uighur seperatist organizations, and ASPI, an australian think-tank. Other sources do include people visiting there[1], including news-teams[2] and third-nation observers[3], but there claims usually get casually dismissed as a bad source for one reason or the other. Chinese media obviously isn't a good source either. Now Zenz is an evangelical fundamentalis…

This just isn’t true. The ethnic cleansing in the Uyghur regions is well-documented by several independent sources. EDIT: Here’s one: https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c And BTW, your sources include a Medium post, a YouTube video, and Chinese govt controlled media. These are hardly reputable journalistic sources.

Your article literally is an example of what the OP cited:

- Multiple citations from Zenz (+Pompeo for bonus points)

- Entire article revolves around testimony of those with 2+ children being subjected to family planning policies (IUD / sterilizations etc).

- Mentions "now-abandoned ‘one child’ policy" without providing context of that new "Two-Child" policy is in affect for everyone, with no minority exemptions.

- Claims 30 interviews reveals how wide spread the practice is. Hint: you can interview 1.3 billion Han Chinese to see how wide spread family planning program was for the last 40 years.

We already know from leaked internal papers the purpose of these camps, the reality is, the camps themselves are boring techno authoritarian reeducation camps (like in France), but the threshold for manufacturing consent requires something meatier like literal genocide. There's sufficient state-level intelligence capability to actually verify the scope of the camps, but western media insists on quoting the same few unsubstantiated sources + Pompeo musings while conveniently omitting facts that goes against the narrative. I.e. recently ASPI "slave labour" study, casually glosses over that the minimum hourly wage from contracts was equivalent to basic salary at Foxconn and 2x annual GDP of prefecture the workers are from. Because the mental image for a prisoner stamping license plates for 50c an hour is different than $20 an hour.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#59

Post by amai »

Clockwork Mandarin:

Russian original: https://les.media/articles/863622-zavodnoy-mandarin

Englisch translation: https://bylinetimes.com/2019/11/18/beyond-orwells-worst-nigh...

German translation: https://www.dekoder.org/de/article/uiguren-kasachen-china-xi...

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#60

Post by winrid »

pas wrote: post #41
winrid wrote: post #32

Didn't read article yet, but when I was in Xinjiang it was an area with very high security (more cameras, more police with guns, giant vehicle barricades around elementary schools). If you ask the locals, they'll tell you it's to protect them from the Uighurs. It seems the conflict there is (was?) a real problem, with Han Chinese being murdered regularly with some communities having to put the men on watch at night.

You had not talked to the locals, as they are in the concentration camps. You talked to those that the CCP transplanted there to slowly (meaning rapidly) dilute and replace the population with good comrades.

Poor word choice. You're correct.
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