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Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#31

Post by throwaway1997 »

dang wrote: post #29
throwaway1997 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The National Security Law prevents me from implying that Taiwan may be different from China.

Single-purpose accounts are not allowed on HN, and neither are accounts that use HN primarily for political or ideological battle. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... Your account looks like it has been doing both of those things. Please don't do that on HN.

Thanks dang. I will cease to use this throwaway account and therefore no longer speak about China truthfully due to safety concerns.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#32

Post by winrid »

Didn't read article yet, but when I was in Xinjiang it was an area with very high security (more cameras, more police with guns, giant vehicle barricades around elementary schools).

If you ask the locals, they'll tell you it's to protect them from the Uighurs. It seems the conflict there is (was?) a real problem, with Han Chinese being murdered regularly with some communities having to put the men on watch at night.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#33

Post by bakuninsbart »

Robotbeat wrote: post #12
throw2876534 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m often afraid to express my skepticism that most of what we know about Xinjiang comes from Adrian Zenz, because doing so makes people think I actually support those policies.

Interesting that the censorship is so effective that we only have one good source, according to you. That's not exactly encouraging...

Almost all of the extreme allegations are levelled by Zenz, Uighur seperatist organizations, and ASPI, an australian think-tank. Other sources do include people visiting there[1], including news-teams[2] and third-nation observers[3], but there claims usually get casually dismissed as a bad source for one reason or the other. Chinese media obviously isn't a good source either.

Now Zenz is an evangelical fundamentalist who once wrote he's on a crusade against the CPC. His studies often times don't really follow scientific standards.

For example, for his claim that 2 million Uighurs are held in concentration camps, he interviewed 8 Uighur refugees, and extrapolated from the numbers they believe to be detained from their villages to the whole region.

Both ASPI and Zenz when accusing the chinese government of genocide via forced sterilization completely glared over the fact that it is the enforcement of the two-child-policy. And they do so knowingly, because if you read between the lines of their reports, it is quite obvious that all the women interviewed already had 2 or more children.

It is extremely difficult to get an accurate picture of what is going on there. - Security is definetely extremely tight in the whole region, and "brainwashing camps" are admitted to exist by the government. Many international Xinjiang without an obvious agenda think something very fishy is going on, but the exact scale, method and goal are completely obfuscated by lies and propaganda from both sides.

[1] https://medium.com/@jerry_grey2002/abc-four-corners-tell-the...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmId2ZP3h0c

[3] https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1168522.shtml

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#34

Post by udue73uru »

usui wrote: post #23
lowdose wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China also made the life of almost a billion Chines better by a factor of 50 in 30 years time. > I frequently think that what is happening over there are the emulations of unethical experiments that the Western world would never be able to pull off. Could you point to a specific year in the 20th century after WW II that no Western government was conducting an unethical experiment? I seriously cannot think of an examp…

> China also made the life of almost a billion Chines better by a factor of 50 in 30 years time. I agree with you. This is why populations, no matter which population it is, are more likely to accept the government who has substantially increased the quality of life of the average citizen. This is a very hard position to disagree with, I think. Many citizens in the Western world also have had stable political systems…

It seems like the interesting question is what happens after total authoritarianism. I know many here find the news out of China nightmarish but most of China is on the mainland and the mainland Chinese, while by no means flourishing in utopia, are pretty content on average compared to where they were in the past. This isn't meant to endorse China by any means but if the west is going to keep espousing the uplifting effects of democracy they're going to need some actual benefits to point to eventually since right now the main perk is friendlier trade relations. Latin American democracy is a joke because they love populists (no one actually studying them blames the intervention memes), the EU is rife with corruption and the U.S. is strong but you can be strong without being a democracy. So why should an aspiring African government, for example, strive for Democracy rather than persuing the Chinese model?

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#35

Post by pasabagi »

udue73uru wrote: post #34
usui wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China also made the life of almost a billion Chines better by a factor of 50 in 30 years time. I agree with you. This is why populations, no matter which population it is, are more likely to accept the government who has substantially increased the quality of life of the average citizen. This is a very hard position to disagree with, I think. Many citizens in the Western world also have had stable political systems…

It seems like the interesting question is what happens after total authoritarianism. I know many here find the news out of China nightmarish but most of China is on the mainland and the mainland Chinese, while by no means flourishing in utopia, are pretty content on average compared to where they were in the past. This isn't meant to endorse China by any means but if the west is going to keep espousing the uplifting…

Democracy developed in a world of totalitarian regimes, and mostly thrived because having officials vulnerable to election cuts down on corruption and incompetence while building government legitimacy and stability.

Totalitarian states tend to have a good run, where they have a good leader and energetic administration, then they become lethargic and dysfunctional, and because there's no mechanism to correct this, they start falling apart. (However, this can take centuries).

As an aside, I don't think the West has ever been particularly keen on democracy. I think Israel is the only democracy that has ever received substantial military and economic support. For dictatorships, this kind of support is basically routine (see Egypt, for a typical example).

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#36

Post by udue73uru »

pasabagi wrote: post #35
udue73uru wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the interesting question is what happens after total authoritarianism. I know many here find the news out of China nightmarish but most of China is on the mainland and the mainland Chinese, while by no means flourishing in utopia, are pretty content on average compared to where they were in the past. This isn't meant to endorse China by any means but if the west is going to keep espousing the uplifting…

Democracy developed in a world of totalitarian regimes, and mostly thrived because having officials vulnerable to election cuts down on corruption and incompetence while building government legitimacy and stability. Totalitarian states tend to have a good run, where they have a good leader and energetic administration, then they become lethargic and dysfunctional, and because there's no mechanism to correct this, the…

Those democracies didn't just emerge in spite of totalitarians though, they emerged because of them and the stability they established. Stable conditions historically lead to democracy but democracy in uncertain circumstances segues into stability much more rarely. Yes corruption is a problem for totalitarians but cracking down on corruption has been a growing aspect of the Chinese model for exactly that reason (whether or not they'll succeed is another matter but it's incorrect to automatically assume that a totalitarian state will be blind to the problem by default). Further, those democracies emerged in a wildly different power climate. A modernized military operating without any rules of engagement is not going to get overthrown by its people when over half the population is content.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#37

Post by wnscooke »

winrid wrote: post #32

Didn't read article yet, but when I was in Xinjiang it was an area with very high security (more cameras, more police with guns, giant vehicle barricades around elementary schools). If you ask the locals, they'll tell you it's to protect them from the Uighurs. It seems the conflict there is (was?) a real problem, with Han Chinese being murdered regularly with some communities having to put the men on watch at night.

Not true. The Han were not being murdered by Uighurs regularly. And every housing development has a gate and guardhouse, almost always has been like that since the danwei days. What is true is that the Han have been scared into fearing the Uighur by twisted news reporting. And once they are scared, any action by a minority looks scary. It’s also true that Uighur have lashed out after horrible treatment at the hands of the incoming Han. It’s understandable but regrettable, especially when the news reports only the one side. And yet, there are plenty of good relationships between the two peoples, but we never hear about that either. There are people on the ground trying to overcome hatred.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#38

Post by microcolonel »

lowdose wrote: post #20
usui wrote: post #16

This article notes that Tang is a digital minister and has experience with information technology. My impression is that Taiwan has a very healthy and balanced demographic of politicians. I have seen Taiwanese mathematicians, doctors, engineers, and chemists fill important government roles involving the spotlight and advocacy. It seems that people of technical expertise in Taiwan have an equally viable chance at ente…

China also made the life of almost a billion Chines better by a factor of 50 in 30 years time. > I frequently think that what is happening over there are the emulations of unethical experiments that the Western world would never be able to pull off. Could you point to a specific year in the 20th century after WW II that no Western government was conducting an unethical experiment? I seriously cannot think of an examp…

The productive economy did that, the people. This is not the glowing leadership of the CCP, but a concession they made so as not to end up like North Korea.

As for unethical experiments, Mao's certainly top the charts.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#39

Post by Eugeleo »

bakuninsbart wrote: post #33
Robotbeat wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that the censorship is so effective that we only have one good source, according to you. That's not exactly encouraging...

Almost all of the extreme allegations are levelled by Zenz, Uighur seperatist organizations, and ASPI, an australian think-tank. Other sources do include people visiting there[1], including news-teams[2] and third-nation observers[3], but there claims usually get casually dismissed as a bad source for one reason or the other. Chinese media obviously isn't a good source either. Now Zenz is an evangelical fundamentalis…

Not sure why you are getting downvoted — I didn't know about this lack of sources and took all of the information about the region for granted. Thanks for reminding me that even things that sound plausible (or especially those things) need to be reviewed, toO!

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#40

Post by pas »

throw2876534 wrote: post #11
OliverTowers wrote: post #2

Everyone is too afraid to even comment

I’m often afraid to express my skepticism that most of what we know about Xinjiang comes from Adrian Zenz, because doing so makes people think I actually support those policies.

Aren't the checkpoints and the camps there and functioning? (BBC video report?) Don't people have to install whatever spy apps on their phones?

Is that not totalitarian enough?

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