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Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

asia.nikkei.com

41–50 of 64 posts

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#41
post #32

Didn't read article yet, but when I was in Xinjiang it was an area with very high security (more cameras, more police with guns, giant vehicle barricades around elementary schools). If you ask the locals, they'll tell you it's to protect them from the Uighurs. It seems the conflict there is (was?) a real problem, with Han Chinese being murdered regularly with some communities having to put the men on watch at night.

You had not talked to the locals, as they are in the concentration camps. You talked to those that the CCP transplanted there to slowly (meaning rapidly) dilute and replace the population with good comrades.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy developed in a world of totalitarian regimes, and mostly thrived because having officials vulnerable to election cuts down on corruption and incompetence while building government legitimacy and stability. Totalitarian states tend to have a good run, where they have a good leader and energetic administration, then they become lethargic and dysfunctional, and because there's no mechanism to correct this, the…

Those democracies didn't just emerge in spite of totalitarians though, they emerged because of them and the stability they established. Stable conditions historically lead to democracy but democracy in uncertain circumstances segues into stability much more rarely. Yes corruption is a problem for totalitarians but cracking down on corruption has been a growing aspect of the Chinese model for exactly that reason (whet…

I think the precondition for stability is a strong civil society, and clear traditions about what constitutes legitimacy. Democracy fosters both of these. Dictatorship can foster both in the case of an 'enlightened despot', but it's often the case that the despot is incompetent, or worse.

If you look at transitions like the english civil war, or the french revolution, the clear precondition of revolution is not 'stability', as you think, but rather systemic dysfunction compounded by incompetent leadership. This kind of situation is one which democracies, in theory, should be much less vulnerable to.

Your ideas about the relative balance of power between state and people make some sense, I think, but they only matter when the threat is internal dissent. Most of the states in modern europe had a form of republicanism enforced on them by the French, who were able to invade all their neighbors because their republican government was (while very dysfunctional) more efficient and able to field talented officers and large armies.

A modernised military, moreover, consists of normal people - and they will also feel the disillusionment and apathy that grips really dysfunctional regimes. Saudi Arabia, for example, fields armies of terrible soldiers, using the most advanced weapons available.

China is an interesting and very weird state, because it's a very old civilization with deep roots, with very different basic ideas to the west, and they have turned marxism into a kind of managerial culture for an extremely capitalist society. I don't know if they will follow any of the typical patterns that totalitarian states follow. You can't really use the USSR as a point of comparison, because the USSR was a very European project, coming directly out of the enlightenment, and the western political tradition. Nor would Korea make sense, since they were colonized, and both North and South represent different reactions to colonial subjugation.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#43

Everyone is too afraid to even comment

Because dang will ban anyone espousing anti-Chinese sentiments, under the guise of 'provoking nationalistic flame wars'. I truly believe there is a conflict of interest somewhere between YC and the CCP because the knee jerk sensorship is quite disturbing.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#44
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single-purpose accounts are not allowed on HN, and neither are accounts that use HN primarily for political or ideological battle. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... Your account looks like it has been doing both of those things. Please don't do that on HN.

Thanks dang. I will cease to use this throwaway account and therefore no longer speak about China truthfully due to safety concerns.

What makes you think dang will allow you to do that even on your main account?

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#45
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me guess,you must come from CN?

It's common for people to conclude that we're moderating the comments we personally disagree with, and to draw personal conclusions about us based on that. I've been called Hitler, Stalin, and everything in between. These conclusions are all bogus. We don't moderate HN based on any of that; we moderate it based on the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .

I've read the guidelines. I do not see how what I wrote breaches them.

The first half enquires on reckless group-think in tech that would bring about a situation such as Xinjlang, I wrote this in the hope those behind it could engage to allay my fears, provide context or offer links to discussions on the recent politicisation of our software. I made a submission when purges were enacted 50 days ago - it was instantly flagged. [1]

I've designed systems in place in both defence and telecommunications. I don't trust any aspect now that updates without thorough audit, you might not like it, but that is undeniably relevant to this place. I did not post it to wage some political battle, it is in response to one waged upon us all. [2]

The second half responds directly to the submitted article, offering a rational position on why China might persue active measures while speculating on why media bylines might push disgust. I've not minced words, I am from the UK so the burden is upon you to tell us what the ideal replacement population is in a country which rejects theocracy, believes in equality before the law and loves its pets to bits? Theil and so Palantir predict it as a potential destiny of ours, our loved ones and our descendants. [3]

Now, if we were to search 'racist' here on HN, over the last month there's over 100 pages of unchallenged comment. When this term is used carelessly without justification or applied to groups it is most insidious, we can accurately label it psychological manipulation and if I myself was inclined to resort to buzzwords, a form of social fascism that would make Trotsky proud. Yet this perversion and weaponisation of language you accept.

If we search covid or corona there's many many pages on what we can see from Belarus and Sweden has been an overblown flu. The masks and disguises pushed have normalised many cases of leering towards others, psychological violence and have terrified us unduly. I have personally witnessed conflict on the street because of them.

Amongst the first cases in America included a victim of a motorcycle accident and many folk in my country are being diagnosed as Covid despite unrelated conditions. My family work in large hospitals so I do not write this without care or insight but because conversation here, of which there is much, flows in only one direction. This unwavering compliance in my view makes our societies vulnerable to behavior that Sanger would term Evil [4].

It is why I hardly spend my time here now. Previously most my downtime was spent in this place learning about wonderous new advances and gaining invaluable insight. Now when I come here, I leave demoralised.

Hailing from working class roots you gave me a greater education than what my state school could bestow. I've the benefit or the curse of not being in your bubble, in real life if I revert to my natural dialect you would look down on me, so I had to adopt the Queens to be able to walk amongst you.

You've created a cradle of intelligent discourse with a community to be cherished so I understand the quandry in preserving that but I would never dream of issuing these names upon you but if you really want me to I suppose the one that springs to mind would be Agent Smith. ;)

I would ask you to think twice before you kill the canaries in the coal mine - they stick their necks out to prevent destabilisation reaching a crisis or a civil war. If it all goes south and they come for me, don't make my last word be your handle dang!

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23450889

[2] https://twitter.com/andrewgodwin/status/1268233565713522689?...

[3] https://youtu.be/iRleB034EC8?t=2357

[4] https://larrysanger.org/2019/11/a-theory-of-evil/

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#46
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m often afraid to express my skepticism that most of what we know about Xinjiang comes from Adrian Zenz, because doing so makes people think I actually support those policies.

Aren't the checkpoints and the camps there and functioning? (BBC video report?) Don't people have to install whatever spy apps on their phones? Is that not totalitarian enough?

Well Microsoft did supply the facial recognition tech to keep order in these camps. [1]

They seem totalitarian enough to suck up all that telemetry, what makes us think they wouldn't be totalitarian enough to sanction its use against us?

So you know the BBC has spent the last two months race baiting. They were once a most treasured institution of my nation now they've lost respect and their future is in jeopardy - you only have to view the hash #DefundTheBBC to see how they're actions have sullied them.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-china-muslim-crack...

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#47
post #23
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China also made the life of almost a billion Chines better by a factor of 50 in 30 years time. > I frequently think that what is happening over there are the emulations of unethical experiments that the Western world would never be able to pull off. Could you point to a specific year in the 20th century after WW II that no Western government was conducting an unethical experiment? I seriously cannot think of an examp…

> China also made the life of almost a billion Chines better by a factor of 50 in 30 years time. I agree with you. This is why populations, no matter which population it is, are more likely to accept the government who has substantially increased the quality of life of the average citizen. This is a very hard position to disagree with, I think. Many citizens in the Western world also have had stable political systems…

The logic is right. The Chinese citizens should think about if they are doing enough. If outsiders start to think if they have done enough for it, the Iraq situation happens. The problem is outsiders do not have enough information to make any decisions. Rather than making the decisions for the Chinese, why not let them sort themselves out. It is much suitable to deal with problem with your own government because you have more information and more saying as well.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the interesting question is what happens after total authoritarianism. I know many here find the news out of China nightmarish but most of China is on the mainland and the mainland Chinese, while by no means flourishing in utopia, are pretty content on average compared to where they were in the past. This isn't meant to endorse China by any means but if the west is going to keep espousing the uplifting…

Democracy developed in a world of totalitarian regimes, and mostly thrived because having officials vulnerable to election cuts down on corruption and incompetence while building government legitimacy and stability. Totalitarian states tend to have a good run, where they have a good leader and energetic administration, then they become lethargic and dysfunctional, and because there's no mechanism to correct this, the…

The democracy of Britain was foisted upon us by D'Israeli following his deposition of Robert Peel.

The teeth was taken from all monarchies, or BDFLs, after Bolsheviks were sent from Germany to murder Tsar Nicholas and his family in an act that ultimately condemned 66m Russians.

In my opinion if you want a stable democracy you enfranchise those who would look to a future beyond their own. e.g. one vote per family. If you franchise those who live for today with not a stake in the future democracy becomes not a viable form of governance.

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those democracies didn't just emerge in spite of totalitarians though, they emerged because of them and the stability they established. Stable conditions historically lead to democracy but democracy in uncertain circumstances segues into stability much more rarely. Yes corruption is a problem for totalitarians but cracking down on corruption has been a growing aspect of the Chinese model for exactly that reason (whet…

I think the precondition for stability is a strong civil society, and clear traditions about what constitutes legitimacy. Democracy fosters both of these. Dictatorship can foster both in the case of an 'enlightened despot', but it's often the case that the despot is incompetent, or worse. If you look at transitions like the english civil war, or the french revolution, the clear precondition of revolution is not 'stab…

Well that's certainly one take. Charles had a bit of a complex sure but you have to understand the context of the time in that Cromwells foreign co-conspirators were demanding nothing less than his head.

The precondition of the English civil war in my opinion was more the funds that facilitated it promised by financiers from Amsterdam who ultimately went on to be granted charter to found the BoE.

As you know the result of this civil war was to wreck the fine castles, history and heritage of the English. Destroy many a dynasty and teach the Irish to hate the Brits for all eternity.

Issac D'Israeli produced a worthwhile read on Charles [1] if you'd like to know more on his character and quarry.

[1] https://archive.org/details/commentariesonli03disruoft/page/...

Re: Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwan minister

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that the censorship is so effective that we only have one good source, according to you. That's not exactly encouraging...

Almost all of the extreme allegations are levelled by Zenz, Uighur seperatist organizations, and ASPI, an australian think-tank. Other sources do include people visiting there[1], including news-teams[2] and third-nation observers[3], but there claims usually get casually dismissed as a bad source for one reason or the other. Chinese media obviously isn't a good source either. Now Zenz is an evangelical fundamentalis…

This just isn’t true. The ethnic cleansing in the Uyghur regions is well-documented by several independent sources. EDIT: Here’s one: https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c

And BTW, your sources include a Medium post, a YouTube video, and Chinese govt controlled media. These are hardly reputable journalistic sources.

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