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The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

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Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#151

Post by cheerlessbog »

xyzzyz wrote: post #133
detaro wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 phase 16A is still not really good - only ~3.6 kW at best. But 230V still makes the cabling easier to handle and 3-phase power is common in residential buildings (at least in parts of Europe), so 11 kW (3x16A) or 22 kW (3x32A) are usual sizes for electric car chargers at homes. Bigger restriction on that is how many people don't live in homes where they can just install a charger, but rather in apartments with eith…

Right, electric cars are too inconvenient for most apartment dwellers, but contrary to a popular impression, there are lots of Europeans who live in single family houses. Additionally, even residents of rural European areas are driving much less on average than rural Americans, simply because what counts for rural in most of Europe is already denser than rural America, especially in the west portion of it. I think th…

Many live in single family homes, yes, but in the UK at least they very often have shared street parking across a pavement (a sidewalk). That is why I was thinking lampposts.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#152

Post by kazen44 »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #72
oblio wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whichever company is the first to make a family EV with a +500km range for less than $20k will sell tens of millions of cars.

It's going to be a long while to hit +500km range for $20k. If we assume that Tesla's batteries are around $120/kWh currently (that's generous, I think it's 127), to get 500 km range with the Model 3 would take around 130 kWh (26 kWh/100 mi). That means that the battery alone is going to be $15,000+, which is 75% of your $20k figure. In my estimation, they'd need to reduce the battery cost down by around 2/3 to reach…

what about cutting costs in all other areas besides the battery.

An eletric car in it's essence is a quite simple system (especially compared to a gasoline car).

Personally, i think having a minimal car with the bare basics that is electric for a very good price would sell really well in Europe, especially considering that gas prices are high (so people will save money in the lifetime of the vehicle compared to gas) and most people don't see a car as a status symbol. Creating a cheap, easy to use and maintain electric car for cheap with cheap and easy to manufacter parts would be amazing. It could decimate the "tiny car" (aygo, clio etc) market.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#153

Post by kazen44 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #58
rsynnott wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You simply wouldn't do a cross-country trip in a Zoe -- say, from Belgium to the French Riviera What percentage of people actually do that at all regularly? I would have thought a lot of people would fly or take the train for that.

From what we see on European roads it's quite common for people in Belgium and the Netherlands to drive to Southern Europe for the summer holidays. Usually these are big wagon cars, though because they need to fit the family and luggage in there. So I think that people will stick to ICE until there are family-sized EV with the range and the price range. Teslas are not really an option at the moment, IMO.

> From what we see on European roads it's quite common for people in Belgium and the Netherlands to drive to Southern Europe for the summer holidays.

Don't underestimate the amount of people who borrow some relative's car to make this trip. Especially younger people (early 20's to mid 30's).

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#154

Post by caf »

pi-rat wrote: post #53
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the Zoe be your only car? Do you plan to do cross-country trips? If not, what would you consider other than a Tesla for long range trips (ignoring branding/marketing for a second)?

Either go for a fast charging car, fastest Tesla moves 1000 km in 10h (incl charging), newest E-tron manages the same in 10h20m (Teslabjørn’s tests). Or go for something super efficient, like the Kias (Kona/Ioniq). Kona does 560 km on a single charge (64 kWh) in real life tests here in Norway.

Kona and Ioniq are Hyundai models.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#155

Post by woodandsteel »

The Zoe has a short range in part because when it was first designed batteries were relatively low in power density and very high in prices. When batteries improved on both of these, the range was upgraded.

Battery density and prices are going to continue to improve, and so we can expect the Zoe will be upgraded in the future. And the battery progress means that larger and longer-range cars will become affordable to a broader public in Europe and elsewhere.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#156

Post by Mvandenbergh »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #126
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of quality of finish and materials, yes. But those are status differentiators rather than functional differences and the Tesla brand name has a status all of its own so they appeal to people with slightly different preferences around status signalling.

Quality is definitely not a status differentiator. The brand is. Usually higher price goes hand in hand with better quality, because that's what is expected of a more expensive car for quite obvious reasons.

If the quality is functional, then it's not a status differentiator. If it's just about appearance, then it is. The interior materials in a BMW of a similar price are more expensive, more "premium", and the tolerances in the way the interior is assembled are tighter but none of those things affect how the car functions.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#157

Post by dencodev »

nradov wrote: post #144
dencodev wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I'd ever get a plug in hybrid - most of the appeal to electric cars for me in the lack of maintenance and lack of things to break. Adding batteries to a gas car just seems like it's doubling the amount that can go wrong and makes the repairs much more expensive.

Toyota plug-in hybrid cars are actually more reliable than comparable Tesla electric cars, despite the greater mechanical complexity. https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-3-vs-Toyota-Prius-Prim...

All I see here are two percentages and a happy face and a sad face. It doesn't really have anything compelling for me to see. And if I'm more likely to need to get a model 3 serviced for something like a panel gap, I'd gladly take that over the risk of total ICE failure on a Toyota. The website says nothing about the severity of the problems, and it's really just the severe ones I care about.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#158

Post by dhosek »

dencodev wrote: post #157
nradov wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyota plug-in hybrid cars are actually more reliable than comparable Tesla electric cars, despite the greater mechanical complexity. https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-3-vs-Toyota-Prius-Prim...

All I see here are two percentages and a happy face and a sad face. It doesn't really have anything compelling for me to see. And if I'm more likely to need to get a model 3 serviced for something like a panel gap, I'd gladly take that over the risk of total ICE failure on a Toyota. The website says nothing about the severity of the problems, and it's really just the severe ones I care about.

The plug-in hybrid is the non-plug-in hybrid with a bigger battery and an external charger. Before Toyota released their first plug-in model, this was a popular DIY hack. We had our non-plug-in Prius for ten years without a single problem before we sold it and bought the Pacifica. You're imagining an issue that doesn't exist. It's not some exotic technology, it's something that's been on the road for over two decades in its modern incarnation and has roots that extend back to the 19th century.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#159

Post by dencodev »

dhosek wrote: post #158
dencodev wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I see here are two percentages and a happy face and a sad face. It doesn't really have anything compelling for me to see. And if I'm more likely to need to get a model 3 serviced for something like a panel gap, I'd gladly take that over the risk of total ICE failure on a Toyota. The website says nothing about the severity of the problems, and it's really just the severe ones I care about.

The plug-in hybrid is the non-plug-in hybrid with a bigger battery and an external charger. Before Toyota released their first plug-in model, this was a popular DIY hack. We had our non-plug-in Prius for ten years without a single problem before we sold it and bought the Pacifica. You're imagining an issue that doesn't exist. It's not some exotic technology, it's something that's been on the road for over two decades…

ICEs have a track record of decades of catastrophic failures due to major component failure. Water pumps, timing belts, gasket leaks, fuel contamination, the list goes on. I've only ever seen a few catastrophic Tesla failures and only because literally every single time it happens it makes the news. Your single data point doesn't mean a whole lot. I realize this comes across as abrasive but I don't meant for it to. Just being conversational

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#160

Post by nradov »

dencodev wrote: post #157
nradov wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyota plug-in hybrid cars are actually more reliable than comparable Tesla electric cars, despite the greater mechanical complexity. https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-3-vs-Toyota-Prius-Prim...

All I see here are two percentages and a happy face and a sad face. It doesn't really have anything compelling for me to see. And if I'm more likely to need to get a model 3 serviced for something like a panel gap, I'd gladly take that over the risk of total ICE failure on a Toyota. The website says nothing about the severity of the problems, and it's really just the severe ones I care about.

Total drive train failures are far more common on Tesla cars than on Toyota plug-in hybrids. You have a badly skewed misunderstanding of the actual risks.
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