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Show HN: UnnaturalScrollWheels – Better scroll wheel settings for macOS

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Re: Show HN: UnnaturalScrollWheels – Better scroll wheel settings for macOS

#61

Post by rootbear »

On my Dell XPS running Ubuntu, I have the touch pad set to "natural" scrolling but I also use a mouse and have that set to traditional scrolling. I find I like this combination a lot, so being able to set up my Mac the same way would be great.

As for why I like them to be different, I think it's all about the tactile experience. I find using the trackpad to be very much like using a touch screen on a phone. In both cases, it's as if I'm manipulating the screen content directly with my finger. With the scroll wheel, it's a different tactile experience and the traditional behavior seems more "correct". Someone could do a nice human factors study on this.

Re: Show HN: UnnaturalScrollWheels – Better scroll wheel settings for macOS

#62

Post by saagarjha »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #55
aptgetrekt wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually Apple's fault more than anyone. I was originally planning to release on the App Store but decided not to after thinking about the $100 a year fee to be in the developer program and the 30% cut Apple would take if it were paid, and that's assuming the app would be approved by Apple in the first place. Although I decided not to release on the App Store I want to keep the option open. Apps on the App St…

...wait a sec. Sandboxed apps have the ability to hijack the scroll wheel when you're using other apps?

I think the accessibility API lets you do this, although you might need to explain why you're using it during app review.

Re: Show HN: UnnaturalScrollWheels – Better scroll wheel settings for macOS

#63

Post by aptgetrekt »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #55
aptgetrekt wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually Apple's fault more than anyone. I was originally planning to release on the App Store but decided not to after thinking about the $100 a year fee to be in the developer program and the 30% cut Apple would take if it were paid, and that's assuming the app would be approved by Apple in the first place. Although I decided not to release on the App Store I want to keep the option open. Apps on the App St…

...wait a sec. Sandboxed apps have the ability to hijack the scroll wheel when you're using other apps?

Looks like it, yes. I don't use any special private APIs, just the public ones that you can use in apps on the app store. They need the accessibility permission to "Control your computer". Apps like BetterSnapTool/Magnet work with the same permission. Here's the code that actually intercepts scroll events: https://github.com/ther0n/UnnaturalScrollWheels/blob/master/...

Re: Show HN: UnnaturalScrollWheels – Better scroll wheel settings for macOS

#64

Post by saagarjha »

toyg wrote: post #40
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #28

I miss when apps like this were built as preference panes. An app that does nothing but change an OS setting—and whose user interface exists purely to adjust those settings—does not belong in my applications folder, and certainly not in my menu bar. Such apps ought to live in System Preferences, alongside other, well, system preferences. And what do you know, Apple built a way for third party developers to do just th…

I agree but I think the issue here is complexity. This app is built with Swift, probably because most developers prefer high-level languages like that over system-level languages like ObjectiveC. Unfortunately, OS vendors typically don’t provide interfaces for high-level languages in their OS machinery unless strictly necessary. Can you actually write a Preferences panel in Swift? I wouldn’t be surprised if the answe…

Swift is largely compatible with Objective-C; for your preference pane question the answer will certainly be yes now due to ABI stability and preference panes running out-of-process. I would expect dealing with the Accessibility API to be the more annoying part, and that only because it's a C API working with function pointers, which means you can't use blocks (which is true with Objective-C as well, but generally par for the course when working with interfaces that Apple doesn't care much for).

Re: Show HN: UnnaturalScrollWheels – Better scroll wheel settings for macOS

#65

Post by saagarjha »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #35
mikestew wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are OS X's metaphors slipping, or are they just being folded into how developers write their apps, or consumers use them? I ask because of the iOS Settings app: it used to be that was the place one changed the settings of an app, not in the app itself. IOW, kinda like the macOS System Preferences panes...sorta. Point is, it can appear that the OS settings pane/app/whatever is for stuff Apple controls, and the rest ha…

> I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that Apple has let the messaging get really confused. Right—part of Apple's job is to create an environment where the "correct path" is clear and developers want to follow it. Either Apple used to do a better job, or else developers did. And, consider: • Apple encourages developers to distribute via the Mac App Store as much as possible. • Preference Panes cannot be sold in the…

> In Catalina, all Safari extensions must be installed from the App Store as individual apps.

Not true, you can distribute outside of the App Store as long as you sign/notarize correctly.

Re: Show HN: UnnaturalScrollWheels – Better scroll wheel settings for macOS

#66

Post by Wowfunhappy »

rootbear wrote: post #61

On my Dell XPS running Ubuntu, I have the touch pad set to "natural" scrolling but I also use a mouse and have that set to traditional scrolling. I find I like this combination a lot, so being able to set up my Mac the same way would be great. As for why I like them to be different, I think it's all about the tactile experience. I find using the trackpad to be very much like using a touch screen on a phone. In both c…

> As for why I like them to be different, I think it's all about the tactile experience. I find using the trackpad to be very much like using a touch screen on a phone.

My personal experience is that after years of keeping the "natural" scroll setting enabled, my scroll wheel has gained some of that tactile feeling in my brain. It's like the wheel is the content, and I'm pushing it up and down with my finger.

However, it definitely took longer for this to happen than with a TrackPad.

Re: Show HN: UnnaturalScrollWheels – Better scroll wheel settings for macOS

#67

Post by saagarjha »

nicky0 wrote: post #34
mikestew wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a URL where this is touted as "innovative", since you used quote marks? Because I believe it was introduced as a way to be consistent with iOS and how users scroll using that OS. No one was filing patents on this one, however.

Quite right. It wasn't really touted as anything. It just showed up in OS X 10.7 in 2010.

Nit: Lion was released in 2011, it was just presented in 2010.

Re: Show HN: UnnaturalScrollWheels – Better scroll wheel settings for macOS

#69

Post by aptgetrekt »

saloon12 wrote: post #57
ploxiln wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the scroll wheel acceleration kills me - I start off scrolling just a few pixels, and then it jumps half a page, when I just wanted a few lines. I've been using a product called "USB Overdrive" which has a multitude of features for tweaking and mapping input devices, just to override the scroll wheel behavior.

You might be interested in this thing (been using it without issues for a while): https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/253111/how-to-disa...

That's actually where I got the idea from! My app works the same way except uses Swift instead of Objective C.

Re: Show HN: UnnaturalScrollWheels – Better scroll wheel settings for macOS

#70

Post by pottertheotter »

jedberg wrote: post #48

Since HN users tend to be more traditional in how they expect their computers to act, I wonder, how many people turn off "natural" scrolling the second they get a new Mac? I never understood why it was there. It makes a ton of sense for content to scroll in the direction your finger moves when your finger is touching the content , but I fail to understand why you'd expect it to move that way when using a touchpad or…

I agree. I find "natural" to be very unnatural, and it seems to be everywhere now. It drives me nuts when I help my wife with something on her laptop. When/how did this become the norm, because it seems like it was not at one time?

I suppose most computer users don't consider settings at all and just go with whatever the default is and eventually get comfortable using that, not knowing it's not "normal". But who made the change so that this became the new normal setting?

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