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The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

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Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#81

Post by phtrivier »

The Zoe is, sadly, at the moment, the perfect anti-yellow-jacket car: no matter how much rebates the government will give you, you need to put so much cash on the table that it's completely unaffordable to those who might benefit from it the most (daily short-medium commutes between peripheral towns.)

Instead, it's bought by already-affluent upper middle-class, who then get to feel better about their carbon footprint, while also saving on gas ! (Which, don't get me wrong, is great !)

As the saying goes, "it takes a lot of money to be poor."

The situation will, hopefully, get better, when there is a second-hand market for EV, or much cheaper vehicles...

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#82

Post by himinlomax »

bitexploder wrote: post #77
namdnay wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons for that is that cars are cheap in the USA, in the absolute and even more relative to incomes. The cheapest RWD model 3 starts at 50k euros - that's unaffordable for 99% of french families. To give a very simplified but realistic stereotype: An upper-middle class family od two software engineers + 2 children will probably have one "premium" family car for sir (e.g. VW Golf or 3008) and one city car…

Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?

It's usually not so much the expense of the car as the cost of operating them. Consider how expensive it is to own a car in NYC, well it's the same in all European cities, even those of much smaller size.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#83

Post by zaroth »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #72
oblio wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whichever company is the first to make a family EV with a +500km range for less than $20k will sell tens of millions of cars.

It's going to be a long while to hit +500km range for $20k. If we assume that Tesla's batteries are around $120/kWh currently (that's generous, I think it's 127), to get 500 km range with the Model 3 would take around 130 kWh (26 kWh/100 mi). That means that the battery alone is going to be $15,000+, which is 75% of your $20k figure. In my estimation, they'd need to reduce the battery cost down by around 2/3 to reach…

I think you mixed up km and miles. 310 miles needs about 75kWh or $120 * 75 = $9,000.

If the car is smaller that number also goes down.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#84

Post by dhosek »

phtrivier wrote: post #81

The Zoe is, sadly, at the moment, the perfect anti-yellow-jacket car: no matter how much rebates the government will give you, you need to put so much cash on the table that it's completely unaffordable to those who might benefit from it the most (daily short-medium commutes between peripheral towns.) Instead, it's bought by already-affluent upper middle-class, who then get to feel better about their carbon footprint…

Here in the US, used Nissan Leafs run around $10K. We don't have much call for another car right now (our main car is a plug-in hybrid Chrysler minivan), but if we did, this would be a likely candidate.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#85

Post by Markoff »

I would expect Toyota or Nissan to be in the top spot, though not sure if they count hybrids or only fully electric cars.

As fore Renault, are we sure these numbers are not driven be some big purchases of some (French) car rental companies for their fleets? It would make perfect sense especially in France.

I'd really like to see which countries contributed to this success of Renault and in what countries it holds the top place.

EDIT: at least in Germany it's tight victory for electric Golf over Zoe - 7320 vs 7066 cars sold in first half 2020, third place far behind Tesla Model 3 with 4367 cars, in UK is winning Tesla, in France Zoe https://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany/latest-germany-bes...

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#86

Post by Markoff »

neuronic wrote: post #67

Anecdote time: I am driving a Zoe multiple times a week and thoroughly enjoy it. Is it premium class car and will take me 600km? No, but that's not why I am driving Zoes. I drive them because it's short city commutes 99% of the time. Rarely more than 10-15km, usually transporting something or bypassing public transport in busy times/Corona/if car is just quicker. I use them via Sixt Share, a car-sharing service. Alwa…

wouldn't electric bike/scooter without renting make more sense for you? unless you use it to do big grocery, though this could be resolved by ordering grocery online

I'm living in the Prague without car, only missing car when doing the grocery, but there is no point to buy car just to do big grocery once a week, might as well rent a car or take taxi or order grocery online, if I would be that lazy.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#87

Post by Markoff »

maeln wrote: post #16

It's honestly not a surprise. The European market favor smaller car way more than the American one. You just have to see the sheer number of 206, Twingo & Clio on the road. I still see some Tesla, but usually it is a status symbol, people who just want an electric car usually go for the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe.

It's not surprise to me it's small car, but that is Renault. I would expect Nissan, Hyundai or Toyota taking the top spots, though by my anecdotal experience I see most often BMW i3.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#88

Post by Markoff »

raxxorrax wrote: post #18

That is probably because of the price, it is the cheapest of them all. I know many people that bought EVs already and the one thing they have in common is vast disposable income or they got it as a company car. I have a car which I seldom use because I am located in a city and only use it to visit family or some groceries. Did cost 2000€ and has a life expectancy of around 5-8 years. It can go from A to B. I have no…

nope, at least not in Czechia - Škoda Citigoe iV is significantly cheaper at 18300EUR vs Zoe for 26500EUR (and between them is bunch of Smarts but let's ignore them since they are impractical), Opel Corsa-e cost less than 2000 more than Zoe

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#89

Post by Markoff »

codeulike wrote: post #9

The new 52kwh Zoe is pretty good, £25k for 200+ mile range. Probably the cheapest 200+ mile EV in Europe right now. The Tesla Model 3 is comparatively expensive due to importing. Cheapest Model 3 on the website is £40k. We're not even getting the Model Y until they build the german factory.

Škody Citigo e iV should have 156 miles, but cost only 18.3K EUR

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#90

Post by Theodores »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #2

In the UK a Renault Zoe is about 30% cheaper than a Tesla Model 3 and is smaller and more urban. I.e. more in line with most cars you see everywhere in Europe. It is also possible to lease the battery instead of buying it along with the car, which seems to be a popular option (although it seems they've removed the option, apparently).

The UK also has London with the congestion charge. EVs are exempt from the £15 per day charge. That works out at a £3750 'saving' over 50 5-day weeks in a year. Combine that with the incentives to buy an electric car, finance schemes to spread payment and the benefits of EV (lower fuel price) and you wonder why more people in the suburbs are not buying EVs. Sure you see some but not that many. Money is not the problem given how many expensive German cars are on the streets.

There is still range anxiety so anyone with an EV and living in London's suburbs will still want an ICE car for when they visit the relatives in the shires or go to their weekend retreat. The Zoe lacks in that area due to range. Meanwhile the Tesla offerings also fall short due to their size which is not what you want on country lanes or in city centres.

Parking at home and on-street charging is a problem so having an ICE and an EV is not practical in the way that it might be in a typical US city. There simply isn't enough space on the street.

Then there is public transport. This is good in London and out to the suburbs, you would want to get the train/Tube to get into London if you had an ounce of common sense, taking a car in is just silly.

The UK is not just London but then it is. There isn't a lot of money to go around in most regions. Plus commutes can be long, too long for range anxiety. Then the people with the money - the boomers - are sceptical about EVs. The UK is therefore going to be stuck with lousy ICE cars for a long time to come.

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