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The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

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Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#61

Post by rsynnott »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #58
rsynnott wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You simply wouldn't do a cross-country trip in a Zoe -- say, from Belgium to the French Riviera What percentage of people actually do that at all regularly? I would have thought a lot of people would fly or take the train for that.

From what we see on European roads it's quite common for people in Belgium and the Netherlands to drive to Southern Europe for the summer holidays. Usually these are big wagon cars, though because they need to fit the family and luggage in there. So I think that people will stick to ICE until there are family-sized EV with the range and the price range. Teslas are not really an option at the moment, IMO.

I don't doubt that _some_ people do it, but I would seriously doubt that everyone, or anything approaching everyone, does it. This would imply a much smaller market for small cars than actually exists.

So, yeah, the Zoe wouldn't be suitable for those people, but it might be suitable for people who buy small cars anyway (which is most of the market, AFAIK).

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#62

Post by imtringued »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #24
michaelt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand someone leasing the entire car, battery included. And I can understand someone buying a car outright. What I can't understand is why someone would want to buy a car outright, but still end up paying a lease on the battery. To me, that doesn't have the benefits of either option.

People have been worried about EV's batteries in terms of lifespan, loss of charge, maintenance, etc. The option to lease the battery was a way to alleviate that worry, IMO.

That's true but you can always lease the entire car. If you only lease the battery you can't just let the lease expire because you still have to find a new owner for the car and if the car has a reputation of needing battery replacements then you might have trouble finding a buyer.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#63

Post by therouwboat »

imtringued wrote: post #42
raxxorrax wrote: post #18

That is probably because of the price, it is the cheapest of them all. I know many people that bought EVs already and the one thing they have in common is vast disposable income or they got it as a company car. I have a car which I seldom use because I am located in a city and only use it to visit family or some groceries. Did cost 2000€ and has a life expectancy of around 5-8 years. It can go from A to B. I have no…

If it wasn't for the epidemic I would have to commute every day. With an electric car I could easily save 100€ per month. A used Renault Zoe for 15000€ could pay for itself after 12 years of use and even turn a "profit" if replacement batteries fall below 5000€ in 2032. This is very different from an ICE car where I expect it to burn a hole into my wallet the longer I use it.

Lets be real here, EV is 50-70% cheaper to drive, its not very different, it just burns bit smaller hole into your wallet. And you probably won't be installing new battery to a 12 year old 1st gen EV that is worth less than new battery.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#64

Post by xiphias2 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #57
xiphias2 wrote: post #45

Model 3 is great in the US, but here people prefer BMWs because of more service locations and much better service (we can get new parts easily from Germany, don’t need to wait for parts from the U.S.), and pay extra costs from importing from outside E.U. The Berlin factory will help with all of these problems.

From what I hear, for the same price range BMWs, Mercedes, etc. are also much better quality than Teslas.

Yes, that's part of the ,,shipping price'' problem as well.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#65

Post by tonyedgecombe »

chrisseaton wrote: post #11
TLightful wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's old. I think since late 2019 you buy the car and battery outright. Good move. Who needs the complication of a battery lease

> Who needs the complication of a battery lease Who needs the complication of owning a big battery?

It didn’t add up economically for my wife’s car.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#66

Post by tonyedgecombe »

Krasnol wrote: post #22
bryanlarsen wrote: post #7

Tesla Europe numbers are wildly variable. Tesla tends to build their European cars at the beginnning of the quarter so that they can be shipped across the ocean and into customer hands before the end of the quarter. The cars at the end of the quarter are shipped to Americans and the cars built in the last week are shipped to Californians. So because of the COVID shutdown, that means that the only month that Tesla mad…

I don't think there will be many who decided to buy a Zoe because a Tesla wasn't available. It's the price. I doubt there is much overlap with the ID3 too. The cheapest model will cost you two Zoes.

VW were originally saying the ID.3 was going to be priced similarly to a Golf diesel. I wonder what changed.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#67

Post by neuronic »

Anecdote time:

I am driving a Zoe multiple times a week and thoroughly enjoy it.

Is it premium class car and will take me 600km? No, but that's not why I am driving Zoes. I drive them because it's short city commutes 99% of the time. Rarely more than 10-15km, usually transporting something or bypassing public transport in busy times/Corona/if car is just quicker.

I use them via Sixt Share, a car-sharing service. Always find parking within a few minutes with the privilege of getting the e-parking spots and the small size.

Zoe is perfect for European city dwelling and short commutes. Not as expensive as BMW i3 or VW e-Golf. Same type of car as the e-Up! which I haven't tried yet.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#68

Post by dzhiurgis »

therouwboat wrote: post #63
imtringued wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it wasn't for the epidemic I would have to commute every day. With an electric car I could easily save 100€ per month. A used Renault Zoe for 15000€ could pay for itself after 12 years of use and even turn a "profit" if replacement batteries fall below 5000€ in 2032. This is very different from an ICE car where I expect it to burn a hole into my wallet the longer I use it.

Lets be real here, EV is 50-70% cheaper to drive, its not very different, it just burns bit smaller hole into your wallet. And you probably won't be installing new battery to a 12 year old 1st gen EV that is worth less than new battery.

You probably won't, but lets compare with current big car bills.

Current Tesla battery cost 75 kwh * 130 $/kwh = $9,750 to Tesla or $16k for end user. It's likely to reach $5k eventually. Wrecked ones cost close to that.

Used 12 year old car cost like 5k for budget, 10k for SUV? What's a thing that I'd bother to replacing on my 10 year old car that cost half the car? IDK probably gearbox or whole engine would cost that. I'd probably go for it if I knew it would last another 10 years.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#70

Post by cheerlessbog »

oblio wrote: post #19
raxxorrax wrote: post #18

That is probably because of the price, it is the cheapest of them all. I know many people that bought EVs already and the one thing they have in common is vast disposable income or they got it as a company car. I have a car which I seldom use because I am located in a city and only use it to visit family or some groceries. Did cost 2000€ and has a life expectancy of around 5-8 years. It can go from A to B. I have no…

Whichever company is the first to make a family EV with a +500km range for less than $20k will sell tens of millions of cars.

In the US most electric cars are charged on the driveway or in the garage. Most Europeans don't have these.

I'm generalizing of course, but it's a significant difference. Most folks I know would have to run a cable across the sidewalk. Electric is only going to work if all the supermarkets and pubs etc etc have fast chargers. Or maybe they put them into lamp posts.

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