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Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

montreal.ctvnews.ca

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Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#181

Post by dingoegret »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #178
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #4

Churches get a bad rap these days, for many reasons. I want to take a minute to defend them. Right away, I want to say that I am not defending religion-driven bigotry, nor megachurches, nor abuse. I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. churches are still where communities meet, where people connect with the spiritual world, and also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity. They…

> U.S. churches are still where communities meet So is conference halls. So is Zoom for that matter. Churches are also places where parents force their children to go against their wishes, where creepy priests make unwanted advances etc. > also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity Any kind? Really? What about NGOs? Volunteering nurses? FLOSS communities? People 3D printing masks…

It's evident by your opening that you have a bone to pick with religion, so I'll keep this short. 3D printing masks for an emergency and other one offs don't come close to the amount of non stop, year long, permanent activity in charity and community of churches and mosques.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#182

Post by dungdongdang »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #4

Churches get a bad rap these days, for many reasons. I want to take a minute to defend them. Right away, I want to say that I am not defending religion-driven bigotry, nor megachurches, nor abuse. I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. churches are still where communities meet, where people connect with the spiritual world, and also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity. They…

communities? no. churches are where a group of people from the community meet, that exclude others on the basis of religion. if a bagel shop did that, people would be up in arms. if they want to give away free food, why would getting taxed on profits stop that?

i'm also not sure what this has to do with taxes.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#183

Post by henriquemaia »

donatj wrote: post #129
Smaug123 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Give me 20 minutes with your congregation and I’ll find the racists and bigots. I can do better than that: I can do that with any group, not just a church congregation!

I was about to make this comment exact comment. It is OP who is delusional about the world around him.

Delusional? On the contrary.

If you're right (and I believe you are) that the whole world is fucked up, filled with all sort of crazy and misguided people, why not treat churches like any other worldly institution, taxing them?

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#184

Post by BookHeretykow »

HPsquared wrote: post #152
neya wrote: post #94

Churches are one of the biggest business entities in any part of the world. Most churches are structured like a proper business entity (Eg. they have equivalent of directors, CEOs and managers) and have revenue targets and KPIs set. Most churches are also located in some of the prime real estate of top tier cities and I always wondered how they were able to afford paying $1500+/Sq.M in a prime, central area. About th…

Well... The government has managers, KPIs, prime real estate etc as well - is it a business too?

Actually yes. Why government should have prime real estate? Why government officials should not pay taxes? Because it's government? Honestly, this is just a job. This is just a building that serve some purpose. This is kinda business which provides you something in exchange of mandatory subscription ️

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#185

Post by dungdongdang »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #96
jsmeaton wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you only tax profits? If a church isn't making any, then there'd be nothing to tax?

>> Don't you only tax profits? If a church isn't making any, then there'd be nothing to tax? Land and buildings for one could be taxed. Churches bought or were given land ages ago, before there was a Manhattan or Boston, as we today know it. Go ahead and pay property tax on land worth $250 Million when you barely make income to keep the lights on.

then they need to close down and move. if i buy a house for 20k and when I retire the property values are sky-high and the property taxes, which pay for things like roads and schools are too much for me to afford, i have to move.

the people giving money to churches to attend that church, should pick up the cost of going to that church. which includes property taxes. if they are not willing to pay for that, it's their problem. excusing churches from these taxes puts the burden for the church not on its members, but on everyone.

let me ask you - that mcdonalds down the street. are it's property taxes paid by you? do you think if they declared themselves the church of fat asses, their property tax should be paid by you, as a county resident? because it would be, like it is for churches. when a portion of land isn't getting tax collected, the cost for the county doesn't go away - they get it from the people paying the taxes.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#186

Post by watwut »

juskrey wrote: post #175
non-entity wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere was communism ever mentioned, only the potential for a "community center" which is a rather generic term that can exist independent of communism.

[flagged]

What are you talking about? Sounds either made up or completely twisted Russian history.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#187

Post by chrisseaton »

hbarka wrote: post #48

I acknowledge this is anecdotal but in the Bay Area CA I drive by many churches (of different faiths) occupying large areas of land on prime hilltop real estate. I’m astonished by this.

Presumably they were there before the rest of the area was so built up?

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#188

Post by rational_indian »

enaaem wrote: post #113
Galaxeblaffer wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you could earmark the collected taxes for creating secular alternatives? Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich people for charity.

Churches provide much more than just money. Solace, peace, love, community etc... I'd say this is more important than money. I used to be a Christian. There are a lot of bad sides of Christianity and that is why I left. But it does help many people and after studying Buddhism I understand how the right approach to Christianity can bring a lot of peace to believers: Unconditional love. Many people grew up made to feel…

I feel these things should exist without God. That is, they can be helpful to non-believers too. But I am having a hard time creating secular versions of these.

I think the root of the problem lies in the fact that God here is an abstract entity with whom the believer communicates but no such abstract entity exists for non-believers (duh!).

May be some form of general artificial intelligence can fulfil this role in the future?

Real people can fulfil this role too but they are probably not abstract enough. edit: And hence not "powerful" enough (to forgive, to protect etc.).

Just spit-balling here. Also not trying to offend anyone here.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#189

Post by onetimemanytime »

dmitriid wrote: post #137
onetimemanytime wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better solution is to keep it as it is. It has survived millennia. It's their land and states can renege their promises.

> It has survived millennia. By "millennia" you mean "at most 300 years, maybe"?

Here in USA. Oldest churches are from the 4th century elsewhere.

For the record: I don't think that priests should be able to buy $50M jets or keep 40% of total land of x country tax free, but they should not be forced to sell buildings because property tax is too high.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#190

Post by henriquemaia »

juskrey wrote: post #135
ranman wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I was raised by a famous “pastor” who traveled around and “preached” to both receptive and dismissive congregations across the US. I experienced more churches than most people. I’m telling you this whole Christianity thing is a scam. sudo apt-get remove religion It’s a mental cancer.

Look, you were raised by fraudster, to begin with, and have seen only fraud. The whole Western modern humanism (which we like so much) is based on Christianity.

Yes, historically, Christianity's theological contribution was the idea of a god that cares equally for everyone. But western humanism goes beyond that (building upon) in that human life is valuable in itself, regardless of the social, economical and, the big innovation, religious/ideological stand of that particular individual.

All of that is supported by philosophical arguments, giving western humanism a much older foundation than Christianity.

So, succinctly, I would put like this: was Christianity a necessary condition for the development of western humanism? Yes. Was it sufficient? No. Bigger and better ideas were needed to make it what it is today.

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