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Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

montreal.ctvnews.ca

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Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#161

Post by forgotmypw17 »

wrnr wrote: post #47
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #4

Churches get a bad rap these days, for many reasons. I want to take a minute to defend them. Right away, I want to say that I am not defending religion-driven bigotry, nor megachurches, nor abuse. I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. churches are still where communities meet, where people connect with the spiritual world, and also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity. They…

Sounds fair but why can't these things just be a not for profit? Don't know about the US law, but often in my country there are for-profit non-profit.

I think it's because publicly funding this stuff is inefficient, and religion/spirituality seems to be the most effective motivator for sustained charitable work.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#163

Post by iso947 »

madaxe_again wrote: post #133
onetimemanytime wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better solution is to keep it as it is. It has survived millennia. It's their land and states can renege their promises.

What has survived millennia “as it is”? The United States? It was founded scarcely three centuries ago. The Christian church? Ever hear of the reformation, of Calvin, of Protestantism? I.e. one of the main reasons the United States exists? It absolutely has not survived millennia. What you call your Christian church today would be unrecognisable to the faithful of a century ago, never mind two, or five, or ten, or tw…

In the UK our local church is physically about 850 years old, But there was a church on the site back in 1086 and presumably before, as it was mentioned in the domesday book. It’s Anglican now, before then it was catholic, maybe it used to be a pagan worship site, maybe in future it will be for the cult of Cummings.

It has severe financial issues at the moment - maintaining the courtyard alone costs £1k a month. I’m waiting for more detailed finances on that.

Maintaining finances for any organisation is a basic bread and butter protection against corruption. I don’t see what harm there is in taxing religious organisations the same way as any other charity.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#164

Post by iso947 »

juskrey wrote: post #75
ggggtez wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where people connect with the spiritual world In the USA, this is quickly becoming an obsolete understanding of religion. Regular church attendance is down from 70% to just over 50% in the last 20 years, according to Gallup. People are leaving the churches. The real question is what will replace them. If people need community, build community centers. There are other solutions that do not rely on continuing to prov…

You should see some Soviet community centers before thinking they can replace anything. USA is highly uneven. In some states like Florida you can see churches on every other corner, and they are very active and developing, serving not only as community centers, but also as halls, child day care, hospitals, schools, galleries etc. No freaking "community center" can replace that.

You should see some American churches before thinking they are substitute for schools and hospitals.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#165

Post by barry-cotter »

hrktb wrote: post #104
onetimemanytime wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Don't you only tax profits? If a church isn't making any, then there'd be nothing to tax? Land and buildings for one could be taxed. Churches bought or were given land ages ago, before there was a Manhattan or Boston, as we today know it. Go ahead and pay property tax on land worth $250 Million when you barely make income to keep the lights on.

A solution to this is to give back the land to the local city and have it handled as cultural heritage, with an authorization to practice religious activities at specific times, but it’s governed by local administration overall. That’s how some cathedrals are managed in europe for instance.

What a perfect way for the state to exercise control over religious organizations! You’d quickly end up with every such state sponsored “church” as disruptive to state interests as the Church of England, the Lutheran State Churches of Scandinavia or the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#166

Post by neya »

simonh wrote: post #160
neya wrote: post #94

Churches are one of the biggest business entities in any part of the world. Most churches are structured like a proper business entity (Eg. they have equivalent of directors, CEOs and managers) and have revenue targets and KPIs set. Most churches are also located in some of the prime real estate of top tier cities and I always wondered how they were able to afford paying $1500+/Sq.M in a prime, central area. About th…

So churches should be taxed because they use effective organisational structures and are well run? That’s a new one. You could say the same of well run charities.

You know the point I'm making - It's a business entity because it makes money and manages money like any other business. Why shouldn't it be taxed?

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#167

Post by juskrey »

iso947 wrote: post #164
juskrey wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should see some Soviet community centers before thinking they can replace anything. USA is highly uneven. In some states like Florida you can see churches on every other corner, and they are very active and developing, serving not only as community centers, but also as halls, child day care, hospitals, schools, galleries etc. No freaking "community center" can replace that.

You should see some American churches before thinking they are substitute for schools and hospitals.

I have seen and used both American churches and Soviet community centers. There is no unconditional goodness on this planet, but the way some people think they can reinvent better commu-nism "this time" is a 100% evil.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#168

Post by AsyncAwait »

stormdennis wrote: post #110
ranman wrote: post #97

Everyone commenting about how great churches are? You’re absolutely delusional. The gross majority of these organizations are bigoted and racist. I grew up in the southern United States and experienced all manner of churches. I don’t care how great your church is. Give me 20 minutes with your congregation and I’ll find the racists and bigots. These assholes promote terrible mental and physical health. They don’t beli…

I grew up in the southern United States and experienced all manner of churches. They’re universally bad. How many churches are you an expert on, exactly?

It doesn't take an expert to realize that a place where belief in irrational things is encouraged isn't amazing.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#169

Post by felipelemos »

legolas2412 wrote: post #158
donatj wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was about to make this comment exact comment. It is OP who is delusional about the world around him.

Not OP but a fellow atheist. Let me provide my opinion. You'll find racists and bigots in any group, but religions explicitly promote the supremacy and truth value of one over the other, and is a source of racism and bigotry. Unlike say, a board game club.

Are you sure you are not talking about the current US government?

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#170

Post by non-entity »

juskrey wrote: post #167
iso947 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should see some American churches before thinking they are substitute for schools and hospitals.

I have seen and used both American churches and Soviet community centers. There is no unconditional goodness on this planet, but the way some people think they can reinvent better commu-nism "this time" is a 100% evil.

Nowhere was communism ever mentioned, only the potential for a "community center" which is a rather generic term that can exist independent of communism.
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