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Typometer: A tool to measure and analyze the visual latency of text editors

pavelfatin.com

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Re: Typometer: A tool to measure and analyze the visual latency of text editors

#31

Post by mwcampbell »

userbinator wrote: post #26
contravariant wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also can't be the only one annoyed by the input lag in the windows login screen and start menu search. Somehow both of them seem to think it's fine to just ignore keypresses for half a second before doing anything. Annoyance aside I seriously worry about the accessibility of the windows lock screen. Through a weird display setup I sometimes find myself trying to log in blind and I just can't do it. There seems to b…

I wonder if the new login screen uses UWP; the appearance and speed (or lack thereof) also suggests so. (The older versions of Windows had a native dialog box: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/startupshutdown/log... )

The Windows 10 login screen definitely uses the UWP XAML framework. And no, I'm not revealing any inside knowledge; I knew this fact before I joined Microsoft (because I used to develop a third-party screen reader for Windows).

Re: Typometer: A tool to measure and analyze the visual latency of text editors

#32

Post by dahfizz »

senkora wrote: post #16
userbinator wrote: post #2

The companion article at https://pavelfatin.com/typing-with-pleasure/ has some example results, showing Atom, the only Electron-based one in the list, as having several times more latency than the others. I wonder how VSCode compares. It's unfortunate that software seems to feel slower the newer it is, including developer tools such as text editors/IDEs. I suspect this is because most people - including younger devel…

A few months ago I found my old GameBoy and played through part of "Kirby: Nightmare in Dreamland". I know its not the most well-known game, so the relevant detail is that it relies a lot on timing and quick movements. I was completely blown away by the responsiveness of the controls. The control feedback was instant , frames were rock-solid, and there were no loading screens at all. When I put down the game, I was j…

It really amazing playing with old technology. In Super Mario Bros on the NES, when you press the jump button Mario jumps the very next frame. And with a CRT you get instant response time.

You just can't get that responsiveness anymore.

Re: Typometer: A tool to measure and analyze the visual latency of text editors

#33

Post by formerly_proven »

contravariant wrote: post #10
userbinator wrote: post #2

The companion article at https://pavelfatin.com/typing-with-pleasure/ has some example results, showing Atom, the only Electron-based one in the list, as having several times more latency than the others. I wonder how VSCode compares. It's unfortunate that software seems to feel slower the newer it is, including developer tools such as text editors/IDEs. I suspect this is because most people - including younger devel…

I also can't be the only one annoyed by the input lag in the windows login screen and start menu search. Somehow both of them seem to think it's fine to just ignore keypresses for half a second before doing anything. Annoyance aside I seriously worry about the accessibility of the windows lock screen. Through a weird display setup I sometimes find myself trying to log in blind and I just can't do it. There seems to b…

It always seemed to me like they intentionally made it so to specifically hinder people from logging in blindly or unlocking blindly; I always assumed to avoid people accidentally typing their login password into an IM app if the machine wasn't actually locked.

Re: Typometer: A tool to measure and analyze the visual latency of text editors

#35

Post by rkagerer »

contravariant wrote: post #10
userbinator wrote: post #2

The companion article at https://pavelfatin.com/typing-with-pleasure/ has some example results, showing Atom, the only Electron-based one in the list, as having several times more latency than the others. I wonder how VSCode compares. It's unfortunate that software seems to feel slower the newer it is, including developer tools such as text editors/IDEs. I suspect this is because most people - including younger devel…

I also can't be the only one annoyed by the input lag in the windows login screen and start menu search. Somehow both of them seem to think it's fine to just ignore keypresses for half a second before doing anything. Annoyance aside I seriously worry about the accessibility of the windows lock screen. Through a weird display setup I sometimes find myself trying to log in blind and I just can't do it. There seems to b…

...windows login screen and start menu search

I don't use them.

I use Open-Shell (formerly Classic Shell). Before that I used Launchy (which is another crazy-fast alternative) tied to my CapsLock key.

I've also had tabs on my file Explorer windows, since Win 7 (thanks to QTTabBars). I'm commonly asked about that after I give remote desktop presentations.

Re: Typometer: A tool to measure and analyze the visual latency of text editors

#36

Post by numpad0 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #14
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The difference between Sublime Text responding in 11.4ms average and Atom responding in 28.4ms average is difference of almost exactly 1 frame of latency for a typical 60Hz monitor That is looking at the average latency for Atom. If you look at the max latency Atom, it is 60ms compared to 15 ms for Sublime text. That is basically 3 frames of latency difference on a 60Hz monitor, and would definitely be notable for t…

> That is basically 3 frames of latency difference on a 60Hz monitor, and would definitely be notable for the average person. Having done some UX work in this area, I can say that people greatly overestimate the effects of latency on text entry when they're just looking at the numbers. End-to-end lag is more obvious in situations like dragging objects, but even then people manage to work around it. Typing isn't perfo…

People tends to compare latencies of devices to human cognition-action loop and declare it irrelevant, but paraphrasing what I’ve heard from a gamer, their understanding is their ability to eyeball sub-10ms range latencies comes from a fact that their I/O loop runs synchronously to real time by training, that added latency can disrupt and force re-adjustments in detectable ways. Like 1PPS signals can be used to sync time in orders of picoseconds, precision of an event is not limited by frequency, only by deviations. Isn’t that interesting?

Re: Typometer: A tool to measure and analyze the visual latency of text editors

#37

Post by magicalhippo »

toast0 wrote: post #30
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is basically 3 frames of latency difference on a 60Hz monitor, and would definitely be notable for the average person. Having done some UX work in this area, I can say that people greatly overestimate the effects of latency on text entry when they're just looking at the numbers. End-to-end lag is more obvious in situations like dragging objects, but even then people manage to work around it. Typing isn't perfo…

I think the latency becomes most problematic when it's inconsistent, and if you want to fix input errors, or move the cursor and then input something. I've experimented with video games with various amounts of display lag or dropped frames; nothing blinded or anything (although, setting up a blind test sounds fun), and there's clearly an increase in difficulty the farther you get between input and response. Writing c…

> I think the latency becomes most problematic when it's inconsistent

Indeed! I don't have a problem using say a SSH console with 1 second lag. After a bit of initial cursing, it works just fine, I can write my code or edit conf files just fine. It's not as comfortable as writing at home, but it's not really a big deal.

However if the lag is inconsistent, say due to packet drops, it's horrible. Even if the base latency is low.

Re: Typometer: A tool to measure and analyze the visual latency of text editors

#38

Post by drewnoakes »

kirse wrote: post #18
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #11

I'm all for faster software, but input lag measurements need to be put in perspective. Just because an editor can process an input in 3ms doesn't mean the pixels will change on your screen in 3ms. If you're using a 60Hz monitor, you're only going to see new frames every 17ms at most (1 second / 60Hz). Your graphics pipeline might have some additional buffering, adding 10s of milliseconds of lag. Your monitor likely h…

If you really believe that you're sensitive enough It's pretty obvious when using extended shortcuts or a string of keys that are committed to muscle memory, like Ctrl+Shift+P (+ first letter of a cmd) or Ctrl+K combos. Imagine playing an instrument wired up to headphones and then adding a 30-60 ms delay... the longer the delay the more it creates that "off" feeling Don't forget too, those are bare metal calculations…

The ear's whole function is to detect differences in patterns. This is how we identify the direction of sound with only two ears. For our ears, a delay of 30ms is an eternity.

The eyes on the other hand have very little response to this. Some will say they can spot a 15ms vs 30ms visual delay easily, but this is an open debate rather than an obvious fact. A 15ms delay in audio is noticeable to almost anyone.

Different senses, different sensitivities. Comparing them isn't very instructive.

Re: Typometer: A tool to measure and analyze the visual latency of text editors

#40

Post by vardump »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't seem to measure input stack latency nor how long it takes for the pixels to be actually visible on the display after all of the compositing delays.

All this measures seems to be time from injected keyboard event until pixels change on whatever bitmap/surface in memory. Message passing, in other words.

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