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Teaching isn’t about managing behavior

theatlantic.com

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Re: Teaching isn’t about managing behavior

#21

Post by snthd »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #2

> In the next five years, most of America’s most experienced teachers will retire. The Baby Boomers are leaving behind a nation of more novice educators. In 1988, a teacher most commonly had 15 years of experience. Less than three decades later, that number had fallen to just three years leading a classroom. This might not be a bad thing. I remember the late 60's and early 70's being an incredibly innovative time in…

https://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates_mosquitos_malaria_and_e... >12:11

> Once somebody has taught for three years their teaching quality does not change thereafter. The variation is very, very small.

Re: Teaching isn’t about managing behavior

#22

Post by catalogia »

nickff wrote: post #19
xhkkffbf wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And winning a war isn't about feeding your soldiers, but you can't win the war without good mess hall sergeants. One loud, misbehaving student can ruin the class for the other n-1. Idealists want to dream that there are no bad kids and it's all the fault of the patriarchy, white supremacy or worse. They may be correct, but work won't commence until everyone is sitting still.

The problem with applying your priorities (for the idealists) is that the misbehaving kids tend to come from the 'victimized' groups. This means that by enforcing clasroom discipline, they (often) feel that they are reinforcing the patriarchy, white supremacy, or other evil side.

Suppose a child disrupts class for 30 of his peers because his dad beats him. His dad has now effectively victimized 31 kids.

Wouldn't it be productive and moral to find ways to help all 31, perhaps by putting misbehaving kids in special classrooms where they can receive specialized help?

Re: Teaching isn’t about managing behavior

#23

Post by falcor84 »

seneca wrote: post #18
falcor84 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, but isn't it the reverse? I don't think education can be really free from politics. Thus, if teachers are not allowed to take up "activism" on an individual basis, and are forced to "toe the party line", then that's exactly indoctrination of students, no?

This is a rephrasing of the "everything is political" argument. No, teaching math is not.

I would argue that even teaching math is somewhat political. Examples:

1. What is the teacher's take on students making errors - Do they immediately correct them? Do they give the student the time to come to a contradiction themselves, but possibly confuse them and other students? Something else?

2. What is the teacher's take on mathematical knowledge - is it there to be discovered, or to be created? How much of math is already known by academics and how much is still in the future? Do they teach concepts as fully given, or as challenges for the students?

Each of these and many other aspects of teaching could influence the student's view of authority and their own agency.

Re: Teaching isn’t about managing behavior

#24

Post by xmsam »

Teaching isn’t about managing behavior, but it is about managing attention. A misbehaving student draws others’ attention from the task at hand, stealing valuable focus away from the learning activity. Managing behavior is therefore critical to both teaching and learning.

Re: Teaching isn’t about managing behavior

#25

Post by danielheath »

catalogia wrote: post #22
nickff wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with applying your priorities (for the idealists) is that the misbehaving kids tend to come from the 'victimized' groups. This means that by enforcing clasroom discipline, they (often) feel that they are reinforcing the patriarchy, white supremacy, or other evil side.

Suppose a child disrupts class for 30 of his peers because his dad beats him. His dad has now effectively victimized 31 kids. Wouldn't it be productive and moral to find ways to help all 31, perhaps by putting misbehaving kids in special classrooms where they can receive specialized help?

Assuming the specialised help isn’t just worse facilities somewhere else, maybe (or maybe not). In practice - who is going to ensure the other facilities are of a good standard? The abusive parents?

If you don’t help that kid, the other 30 will spend their whole lives sharing a society with an adult who didn’t get help. That’s an unfair drain on their life too (increased crime, policing costs, etc).

Putting the disruptive kids in the same place as everyone else means the incentives are right to do something useful to help them.

Re: Teaching isn’t about managing behavior

#26

Post by [deleted] »

catalogia wrote: post #22
nickff wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with applying your priorities (for the idealists) is that the misbehaving kids tend to come from the 'victimized' groups. This means that by enforcing clasroom discipline, they (often) feel that they are reinforcing the patriarchy, white supremacy, or other evil side.

Suppose a child disrupts class for 30 of his peers because his dad beats him. His dad has now effectively victimized 31 kids. Wouldn't it be productive and moral to find ways to help all 31, perhaps by putting misbehaving kids in special classrooms where they can receive specialized help?

[deleted]

Re: Teaching isn’t about managing behavior

#27

Post by chongli »

catalogia wrote: post #22
nickff wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with applying your priorities (for the idealists) is that the misbehaving kids tend to come from the 'victimized' groups. This means that by enforcing clasroom discipline, they (often) feel that they are reinforcing the patriarchy, white supremacy, or other evil side.

Suppose a child disrupts class for 30 of his peers because his dad beats him. His dad has now effectively victimized 31 kids. Wouldn't it be productive and moral to find ways to help all 31, perhaps by putting misbehaving kids in special classrooms where they can receive specialized help?

It would take one hell of a teacher to handle a full class of misbehaving students. I think most teachers would pass on that opportunity.

Re: Teaching isn’t about managing behavior

#28

Post by NineStarPoint »

seneca wrote: post #18
falcor84 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, but isn't it the reverse? I don't think education can be really free from politics. Thus, if teachers are not allowed to take up "activism" on an individual basis, and are forced to "toe the party line", then that's exactly indoctrination of students, no?

This is a rephrasing of the "everything is political" argument. No, teaching math is not.

Basic maths is pretty much the only pure discipline I can think of, unfortunately. Indeed I cannot think of any reason for politics to influence math teachers.

There are still people today in the US who consider teaching evolution a step too far. In the US one of the major parties considers modern climate science off limits because they disagreed with its conclusions.

Then you get into history and literature and it’s almost impossible for politics to not influence what should be taught and how it should be taught. Yes, the teachers should still primarily be trying to impart kids with the tools to analyze things and seek knowledge themselves, but some topics are just too human to believe that they can be taught from a completely apolitical perspective.

Re: Teaching isn’t about managing behavior

#29

Post by jessaustin »

catalogia wrote: post #22
nickff wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with applying your priorities (for the idealists) is that the misbehaving kids tend to come from the 'victimized' groups. This means that by enforcing clasroom discipline, they (often) feel that they are reinforcing the patriarchy, white supremacy, or other evil side.

Suppose a child disrupts class for 30 of his peers because his dad beats him. His dad has now effectively victimized 31 kids. Wouldn't it be productive and moral to find ways to help all 31, perhaps by putting misbehaving kids in special classrooms where they can receive specialized help?

First let's hire another teacher and cut that class size down!

Re: Teaching isn’t about managing behavior

#30

Post by zepto »

snthd wrote: post #21
JKCalhoun wrote: post #2

> In the next five years, most of America’s most experienced teachers will retire. The Baby Boomers are leaving behind a nation of more novice educators. In 1988, a teacher most commonly had 15 years of experience. Less than three decades later, that number had fallen to just three years leading a classroom. This might not be a bad thing. I remember the late 60's and early 70's being an incredibly innovative time in…

https://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates_mosquitos_malaria_and_e... >12:11 > Once somebody has taught for three years their teaching quality does not change thereafter. The variation is very, very small.

This means that in then current scenario half of teachers will not have reached full competence, whereas in 1988, 80% would have.

This is a monumental problem.

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