Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods • Hacker News Board

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#351

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 1:59 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #317

smoe wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never been to an US residential area and only "know" them from tv shows. Are they really pretty much completely devoid of businesses as this article indicates? No grocery / mom and pop stores, bars, restaurants, hair dressers etc.? That sounds very inconvenient. I always assumed you'd get some basic commercial everywhere.

For any given population density how the suburbs looks varies WILDLY based on the specific area and the economic/demographic situation since 1950. In some places you'll have continuous miles of nothing but housing. In others it's an organic "spread out and up" from a core area. It basically comes down to what the local economy can support and the level of development that happened between 1865 and 1945. Having hard c…

[deleted]

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#352

Post by maxsilver » Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 2:02 PM UTC

smoe wrote: post #43

aahhahahaaa wrote: post #13

How did we slip away so far from this being fairly obvious? Cities have worked well this way for hundreds of years. Maybe the industrial revolution made cities too unpleasant? Were we too spoiled by the automobile industry and government roads? White flight from cities into the suburbs?

Never been to an US residential area and only "know" them from tv shows. Are they really pretty much completely devoid of businesses as this article indicates? No grocery / mom and pop stores, bars, restaurants, hair dressers etc.? That sounds very inconvenient. I always assumed you'd get some basic commercial everywhere.

No, as a US citizen, they are not anything like described above.

An American suburb is, basically by definition, never more than 15 minutes drive from a grocery store, a doctors office, a dental office, some sort of clothing store, at least one bar, at least one restaurant (usually 2+), at least one hair dresser, etc. It will usually all be ugly (strip malls are common), but it will be affordable and economically sustainable. You can walk or bike anywhere (sidewalks are usually nicer than in the UK), but usually only car-based public transit is actually convenient (mainly because suburbs prioritize saving cash, and car-based public transit is always the cheapest transit).

If you truly need to drive 40+ minutes to get to a grocery store, you don't live in a suburb. You are either in an exurb, or just plain rural area.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#353

Post by Mvhsz » Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

save_ferris wrote: post #338

apcragg wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a myth that Houston doesn't have zoning. They don't have use based zoning but they still have plenty of requirements such as parking minimums and lot sizes that serve as de facto zoning.

Ah that's right, use-based zoning. I still don't see how removing all zoning would de facto make cities easier to get around in, particularly when the US has a long history of private interests working against public mobility projects. The reason Americans are so dependent on cars was largely influenced by big automakers.

I tend to think that the outcome of removing zoning in the US would be very case-by-case. In a desirable urban neighborhood with height restrictions and a historical building commission, it might be possible to add a lot more density and storefronts without zoning. On the other end, I don't think a developer would add a story to a suburban olive garden along a busy road. If anything it might be cheaper to build sprawl without zoning.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#354

Post by madamelic » Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 2:08 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #129

bobthepanda wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different strokes for different folks. The corner bodega in my old New York neighborhood was open late into the night and made a good bacon egg and cheese sandwich. The important thing is that we should not legislate these out of existence.

I don't totally understand the economics of how those work in NYC. Just sheer density and throughput? Family-run shops staffed by extended family working unofficially (avoiding payroll tax, minimum wage, etc.)? Some mixture? In the "is DC a real city?" angst, people occasionally claim there aren't any such shops in DC. But there are, it's just that the sandwiches are priced at $10-14, so people don't think of them th…

>I don't totally understand the economics of how those work in NYC. Just sheer density and throughput?

People like bodegas, they are everywhere and like someone else said: tax evasion. Bodegas love cash, and you learn to carry it otherwise you are going to have to meet a $5 - $10 min (which they aren't supposed to be doing, but do)

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#355

Post by jessaustin » Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 2:09 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #349

Matt3o12_ wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It only makes sense when it's about noisy and air-polluting businesses, grocery/whatever stores and offices are absolutely great to be dispersed within residential areas! Grocery stores (even small ones) can be very noisy, especially with extended business hours these days. I used to live In an apartment above a grocery story with a small parking lot for a long time. This was also in a mixed zone area (mostly resid…

I lived directly behind the loading area for a large grocery store for a few years and personally I thought noise concerns were overblown. After the first week or so I was just used to those noises and slept right through them. Granted, that might not be something everyone can deal with, but I imagine a lot of people can. P.S.: It was great having a (24 hour!) grocery store that close. I thought of it as my personal…

It's true; light sleepers are the bane of civilization. If they could just relax, we all could.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#356

Post by madamelic » Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 2:12 PM UTC

jackcosgrove wrote: post #88

aahhahahaaa wrote: post #13

How did we slip away so far from this being fairly obvious? Cities have worked well this way for hundreds of years. Maybe the industrial revolution made cities too unpleasant? Were we too spoiled by the automobile industry and government roads? White flight from cities into the suburbs?

The suburbs grew because of some legitimate reasons. In the mid-20th century cities were very crowded. It's one thing to live alone in a 1000 sq ft condo in a city now. 70 years ago that equivalent space was housing a family of five. More space for less money was enabled by automobiles, and it was a great improvement for many. That said many suburbs botched their expansions with tract housing and poor urban design, b…

There is also that whole thing about how suburbs were invented to escape "the city" (read: non-whites).

Look up Levittown.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#357

Post by michaelcampbell » Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 2:13 PM UTC

maxsilver wrote: post #352

smoe wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never been to an US residential area and only "know" them from tv shows. Are they really pretty much completely devoid of businesses as this article indicates? No grocery / mom and pop stores, bars, restaurants, hair dressers etc.? That sounds very inconvenient. I always assumed you'd get some basic commercial everywhere.

No, as a US citizen, they are not anything like described above. An American suburb is, basically by definition, never more than 15 minutes drive from a grocery store, a doctors office, a dental office, some sort of clothing store, at least one bar, at least one restaurant (usually 2+), at least one hair dresser, etc. It will usually all be ugly (strip malls are common), but it will be affordable and economically sus…

> An American suburb is, basically by definition, never more than 15 minutes drive ...

which to a lot of the rest of the world is a really, really long ways and essentially "not in the same area".

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#358

Post by smoe » Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

cpursley wrote: post #240

osdiab wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a wealthy American suburb, the nearest grocery store was a 40 minute walk from my home, and I would have looked like a madman for simply walking on any street in the entire city because literally only beggars don’t ride cars. I’m glad to be living in Tokyo now!

This. Occasionally whenever I would walk the mile to our nearest grocery store (at least there was a sidewalk) my neighbor would see my while he was driving and offer to give a ride. He was always totally perplexed why I was walking and ask if my car was broken. There's an attitude especially prevalent in the south (USA) that only poor people who can't afford a vehicle walk. I'm glad to now live in a human-scale city…

Some of the suburbs described here really baffle me, because of how unpractical it seems for a country that is otherwise quite focused on optimizing things for the "lazy" and businesses supposedly popping up and flourishing wherever there is opportunity.

I get that, if you have a car it probably doesn't bother you, but the amount of logistics to have your children and maybe elderly no longer able to drive shipped around for everything must be enormous? I don't have kids but just from remembering what me and my siblings did on ourselves (from getting hair cut to going to sport clubs) from kindergarten age onwards, by walking and later cycling. I'd have to hire a driver. I only remember ever been in the car as a kid when going to another city or weekend trips.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#359

Post by neutronicus » Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #111

novok wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is why you need tax penalties such as long term unoccupied property taxes and non-resident investor taxes to counter incentivize such behavior.

I’m skeptical that taxes themselves can resolve the problem. The people who engage in these tactics are already quite good at gaming them. Housing would have to revert to circumstances like Japan, where homes are largely a depreciating asset.

They should be, shouldn't they?

They're physical luxury goods that deteriorate as you use them, like cars. They appreciate largely because of nearby corporate and government investment (in office complices, schools, utilities).

That people make money off of them suggests that the government isn't being nearly aggressive enough about capturing the value it's creating here.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#360

Post by bearbin » Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #337

viraptor wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The context here is UK rural areas which are not quite like other places. Imagine a road that can fit 1 car, with wider places every few hundred metres and 2m+ hedges on both sides, immediately next to the road. Apart from specific paths you can't really go into a field. Random example https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/narrow-road-high-hedge-18153... Not all counties will look like that, but quite a lot of them to. Ima…

That is helpful context. Wow, they really don't want to see their neighbors. Safe roads require unobstructed sight lines.

For pedestrians, yes that type of road is fairly dangerous. But for cars it's not too bad, drivers know they need to pay attention and nobody is going at high speeds. It's also easier than you might think to see oncoming cars, especially when it's dark and their headlights are on.

Fortunately/unfortunately that type of road is becoming slightly less prevalent, as efficient modern farming means hedges are maintained less than they were historically and they either get chopped down or neglected and end up growing into larger trees that are much easier to see through.