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Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

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Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#251

Post by kmonsen »

barry-cotter wrote: post #136
kmonsen wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean I lived in both ca and ny and the tax rate is pretty close to European ones. When I lived in Switzerland just the federal rate was higher than my Swiss tax rate. The big difference in total compensation after tax between Western Europe and USA is in the compensation part for people that are considered highly skilled. For example for me I get at least 2x here in CA compared to what I would get in Norway and Swi…

> Another difference there is that life in Europe is much nicer for the average middle class, but personally I think it’s nicer in the US for upper middle class, the top 10%. This is a gross underestimate. One can quibble about whether the top 40% or 80% of the US is richer/consumes more than in Europe but the idea it’s only true for the top 10% is delusional. Germany has a lower GDP per capita than every state bar M…

What you say is statistically true. Having lived in both Western Europe and two US states I would say there is something missing in that you need more money in the US to have a similar lifestyle on an emotional level.

It’s really hard to explain and I guess having to be experienced.

I think this has not always been true, and is part of the reason why we are seeing discontent in the US right now. Life for middle class used to be a lot more comfortable.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#252

Post by albatross »

Digory wrote: post #245
albatross wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like an educational instituion relying on income from real estate properties points to the greater issue here: General lack of funding for education. Making money off housing will disproportionately affect students of differing income backgrounds, so this is not the same as moving that cost to tuition fees. Schools shouldn't have to run themselves like a traditional business, yet that is exactly the model mo…

Schools will always have to compete for their share of the pie, unless you want to do some pretty bad things. Even in a no-limits, fully-government-paid education system, Tidmarsh Community College is going to have to convince students to come there instead of Harvard or State U. They'll have different resources. You'd have to reduce student choice, or socialize college assets, to have a world where colleges just don…

> Even in a no-limits, fully-government-paid education system, Tidmarsh Community College is going to have to convince students to come there instead of Harvard or State U. They'll have different resources.

I think your argument here is missing the fact that places like Harvard have a competitive admissions process and carry a reputation which will continue to attract distinguished faculty and high-achieving students, regardless of funding scenario.

If a student living near Tidmarsh doesn't get in to Harvard and still wants to attend a school, they may be forced into a second choice school anyway. The top university in many countries is often partially or completely linked to the state (point being gov't funded), and admissions are gated based on academic achievement.

I'm not really sure why you think this system would break down if suddenly if budget worries were suddenly eliminated. Not everyone can go to Harvard in either scenario, and for that matter, not everyone wants to go to Harvard either. If I wanted to be a welder, there are likely dozens of schools better equipped than Harvard to teach me those skills.

I'm a little unclear why socializing university assets would be problematic, but open to clarification on that point if you care to provide it. In my view, a vigorous and stable educational system benefits society as a whole, and seems a reasonable thing to socialize as a "public property" of sorts.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#253

Post by motohagiography »

criddell wrote: post #97
motohagiography wrote: post #43

Depends on what you think of the value of school is. Given the distribution of outcomes and skills, the effect of a degree for the vast majority in the long tail of graduates is just tribal affiliation with the people who achieve in the upper percentiles. For most people, simply paying for the credential without attending classes would deliver most of the value. Traditionally, this was known as "purchasing a commissi…

What are you talking about when looking at the distribution of outcomes? What are the outcomes? The value of school for me was (in no particular order) learning how to learn, how to tackle large projects with difficult questions, how to work with other people, how to manage my time doing all of that, building a network of both people in my area and outside of my area, smoothly transitioning from childhood to adulthoo…

By distribution of outcomes I mean a Pareto distribution where a few people who graduated from a school will become presidents, win Nobel prizes, develop new techniques for disease treatment and surgery, write things that enlighten, or build something that changes the lives of many people, but the vast majority (the long tail) will not.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#254

Post by wutbrodo »

game_the0ry wrote: post #142
wutbrodo wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-directed study is challenging, especially for 17 year-olds that don't have anyone (eg parents) who are in tune enough with autodidactism to guide them. One of the biggest advantages of college for me was realizing how much there was to learn and how easy it was to do it (after skating through all of my schooling with straight As), and I only really refined my autodidactic abilities in my mid-20s.

> Self-directed study is challenging Fair point, but that's because students are not encouraged to learn what they are interested in.

Right, but in the absence of parents who are capable of guiding them, they won't be able to either. Most adults arent good at being autodidacts either.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#255

Post by rogerdickey »

chadash wrote: post #228

There's something about being on a campus that made a big difference for me in college. Some experiences that I had that are hard to replicate remotely include: * Group discussions in seminars. When you are in person, there's a better dynamic to holding a discussion. You can read others' body language and see when to speak up. Zoom works fine for very small groups ( * Impromptu chats after class with professors to as…

I can't count the number of social interactions, big and small, that built my character and maturity. Not to mention life-long friendships formed, romantic relationships, and more. It's a unique and critical time when you are finally a free adult but don't yet have "real" obligations like a job or family. There is simply nothing in life that compares to an in-person college experience.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#256

Post by JMTQp8lwXL »

7thaccount wrote: post #213

It's a shame. I'd like to work on an online masters in engineering to supplement my bachelor's. The cost for 4 years of an online program that actually has relevant classes of interest is like $50k even with my company paying over $5k a year. That's rediculous. They try to sell it to me based off of the potential earnings it could lead to, but I'm already well established in my industry (capped out on the technical t…

You have to consider the opportunity cost as well. Time away from working is income you could have already earned.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#257

Post by WalterBright »

darth_avocado wrote: post #196
game_the0ry wrote: post #29

A couple of years ago, I was looking into MOOCs for tech education, Udacity's nano degree in particular. I remember stumbling across a video on Youtube where some Udacity folks were discussing the merits of online education with college professors and admins. What stood out to me was how vehemently the college folks were against online education. They were visibly livid - there was no way substituting a live class ro…

You're confusing professors and admins. All professors that I know from undergrad (one of the best unis in the country for tech), recorded all the lectures, sessions and discussions and made all the class material online, including reading material, because they were of the opinion that education should be available in all ways possible. If you didn't feel comfortable concentrating in a class, you could do it later,…

I wish when I went to college I'd had the foresight to simply record the lectures on cassette tapes.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#258

Post by thayne »

game_the0ry wrote: post #29

A couple of years ago, I was looking into MOOCs for tech education, Udacity's nano degree in particular. I remember stumbling across a video on Youtube where some Udacity folks were discussing the merits of online education with college professors and admins. What stood out to me was how vehemently the college folks were against online education. They were visibly livid - there was no way substituting a live class ro…

> I know I would.

unfortunately, for many students that isn't an option. Some students rely on living off of student loans, which they can't get during a gap. Some student's income is tied to the university (for example, working as a TA, or research assistent).

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#259

Post by j_walter »

Most of the time online classes cost more than in person classes. This is not a factor of cost to give the class, but a factor of paying more for the convenience of taking the class online. I'm currently enrolled in a post-bac CS program that is >$500/credit hour. The on campus classes are $318/credit hour. Not all programs are like this (OMSCS comes to mind), but many are.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#260

Post by kogus »

caenorst wrote: post #202

MOOC that have been around for years are more prepared for online classes and cheaper than any of those universities that will make you pay for maintenance of facilities that you cannot even use. And don't you tell me that they cannot save on electricity and cancelled activities. The price of tuition is not following any offer-and-demand, they are just using the fact that you are in the middle of your studies and you…

I think your second point is incorrect. I work closely with several universities, and the current situation has increased, not reduced, the pressure on their budget. IT infrastructure upgrades, producing training materials, the loss of rent income from university owned housing, and many other factors all combine to far outweigh any savings from not having to run the hallway water fountains.

Having said that, a university telling a student they must pay full price for less than full value is expecting the customer to essentially give a charitable donation to a business model "because we need it".

To attempt an analogy: if a grocery store had its warehouse burn down, they would not then be able to turn around and charge 10% more than market price on all of their items "because they needed it". That disaster would be a cost they'd have to absorb.

Universities are at least partially insulated from having to respond to the market like a business would, because of the high cost and difficulty of switching schools in the middle of an education. My sense is that if things can return to normal within a year, then they'll recover from this. If they can't open for in person classes for longer than that, then students will take the leap and move away from traditional universities permanently.

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