“They would have said faster horses” – An example of asking wrong questions • Hacker News Board

Re: “They would have said faster horses” – An example of asking wrong questions

#11

Post by parsimo2010 » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #2

Here's my problem with that quote: it comes from the same man who also said "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black." Considering that context, I view his horses quote as another expression of his contempt for what other people want, even when they want something reasonable. Also, Henry Ford did not invent the car. Cars existed before he mass produced them; had he asked peo…

Here's my problem with people that have heard a few popular quotes and think they understand the whole story: for the first several years the Model T came in several different colors. It switched to black only because of demand, then eventually they went back to offering multiple colors when they could.

Ford only switched to making black cars only when the demand was so high that the production lines couldn't keep up. It wasn't contempt for the customer that made him do it, his choice was either to streamline the production process or to raise prices so that demand would drop. The selling point of his cars were that the common man could afford them, not that they were colorful. He made an appropriate business choice, not some user-hostile choice.

Re: “They would have said faster horses” – An example of asking wrong questions

#12

Post by csours » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

Stated another way: Listen to your customers, but don't feel obligated to do exactly what they say.

> Just ask “What is your top problem?”

People will answer this question in the form of imagined solutions or improvements to existing systems, so it's not a matter of simply asking a different question, it's a matter of digging into the answers and needs.

Re: “They would have said faster horses” – An example of asking wrong questions

#13

Post by Spartan-S63 » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

btschaegg wrote: post #6

There is a quote by Don Norman on the matter that I like very much (from "The Design of Everyday Things"): > Requirements made in the abstract are invariably wrong. Requirements produced by asking people what they need are invariably wrong. Requirements are developed by watching people in their natural environment.

Hm... sounds a lot like the scientific process and basic research :)

Re: “They would have said faster horses” – An example of asking wrong questions

#14

Post by setr » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #7

setr wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that unreasonable -- a reasonable number of reasonable configuration options produces a very unreasonable application.

I think it was probably reasonable for him to only offer his car in black due to mass manufacturing logistics of the time. However I think he could have explained this, instead of making some pithy remark about other people having wrong opinions or something.

>However I think he could have explained this, instead of making some pithy remark about other people having wrong opinions or something.

That's hardly fair when you're talking in quotes. These are by-definition snippets taken out of context.

Actually I'll make a stronger statement: it's an absurd request. You can't just judge someone, and their mindset, based on a single random statement they made that somehow became popularly remembered across all the other million of statements they made. You have to at least make the effort to find a small body of work to judge by

Anyways, at least according to this guy[0], Ford likely never said it except as a joke.

[0] https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Henry-Ford-say-%E2%80%9CA-cust...

Re: “They would have said faster horses” – An example of asking wrong questions

#15

Post by timmins » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #2

Here's my problem with that quote: it comes from the same man who also said "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black." Considering that context, I view his horses quote as another expression of his contempt for what other people want, even when they want something reasonable. Also, Henry Ford did not invent the car. Cars existed before he mass produced them; had he asked peo…

Part of the reason you have a problem with the same man making both of those quotes is that the "faster horse" quote was likely not said by Henry Ford.

https://checkyourfact.com/2019/10/10/fact-check-henry-ford-q...

https://hbr.org/2011/08/henry-ford-never-said-the-fast

Re: “They would have said faster horses” – An example of asking wrong questions

#16

Post by jameslk » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 10:01 PM UTC

HugoDaniel wrote: post #8

love the ending about not being gpt3 generated :) nice touch

I have this fear I'm reading GPT-3 produced text now whenever I read an article or comment that seems to lack a lot of context or goes off on weird tangents. It's a unique feeling, similar to experiencing gaslighting or the uncanny valley of text. I think this new phenomenon needs a name

Re: “They would have said faster horses” – An example of asking wrong questions

#17

Post by cgrealy » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 10:06 PM UTC

csours wrote: post #12

Stated another way: Listen to your customers, but don't feel obligated to do exactly what they say. > Just ask “What is your top problem?” People will answer this question in the form of imagined solutions or improvements to existing systems, so it's not a matter of simply asking a different question, it's a matter of digging into the answers and needs.

It's your classic 5 whys, except in this case you can get to the root cause in probably 2 hops

"I need a faster horse" "why?" "so I can travel faster" "why?" "so I can get to where I need to be quicker"

Re: “They would have said faster horses” – An example of asking wrong questions

#18

Post by fultonfaknem42 » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

jameslk wrote: post #16

HugoDaniel wrote: post #8

love the ending about not being gpt3 generated :) nice touch

I have this fear I'm reading GPT-3 produced text now whenever I read an article or comment that seems to lack a lot of context or goes off on weird tangents. It's a unique feeling, similar to experiencing gaslighting or the uncanny valley of text. I think this new phenomenon needs a name

Confusion. You're experiencing confusion.

I get the exact same thing.

Re: “They would have said faster horses” – An example of asking wrong questions

#19

Post by chongli » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

This is also known as the XY-problem [1]. People want a solution to X, and they think Y is the way to solve it. But they’re having trouble doing Y and so they ask for help with Y.

The problem is that Y is not the best way to solve X and you’re confused about why they’d ever want to do Y. Life would be much easier if they had just asked for help solving X.

[1] https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/66378

Re: “They would have said faster horses” – An example of asking wrong questions

#20

Post by detaro » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #19

This is also known as the XY-problem [1]. People want a solution to X, and they think Y is the way to solve it. But they’re having trouble doing Y and so they ask for help with Y. The problem is that Y is not the best way to solve X and you’re confused about why they’d ever want to do Y. Life would be much easier if they had just asked for help solving X. [1] https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/66378

Is there a name for the reverse, when Stack Overflow assumes you don't understand your constraints and propose all possible solutions to what they think is X that aren't a solution to Y?