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The German Problem with Tor

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Re: The German Problem with Tor

#31

Post by Havoc »

notRobot wrote: post #3
Havoc wrote: post #2

Why all the hate for Germany specifically? Pretty much no gov out there likes TOR nodes. The fact that there are ton in Germany any seems like something that should be applauded

> The high number of high-speed relays and exits in Germany mean that it is not too uncommon to get both a German guard and exit. This gives the state an easier time if they want to target someone using traffic correlation attacks. > That also does not take in account the planned German law that will allow authorities to redirect traffic to state-owned servers, to infect users with viruses/Trojans. This is especially…

Yes I did read it

> not too uncommon to get both a German guard and exit.

The solution here is more non-German nodes not to shit on the Germans that are already hosting lots.

Maybe there is a language barrier at play here but just seems bizarre how aggressively “the German” is being singled out:

>the German will give itself as many powers as it can to spy on its own citizens and those abroad.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#32

Post by afiori »

dabbledash wrote: post #18
_Microft wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only double standards if one considers states and companies as being in the same position. A state and a company have vastly different goals. A state should care for its citizens, this includes protections against threats to public safety (terror, organized crime) and surveillance is a tool in the box for that. A company on the other hand, would have no issues fleecing people and abusing their power for profit…

You would think the Germans of all people would know better than to view the state with this kind of naivety. I don’t think the state is dangerous because it gets in the way of profit (though it can do that) but because it can directly oppress its people in all kinds of violent ways. The mitigating factor is supposed to be that people can hold their government accountable, but allow the government to snoop on everyon…

I can't really bring myself to agree with this view of the world. To me it sounds like saying that parents are dangerous because they can mistreat children or that employers are dangerous because they can oppress employees.

Obviously those are true statements, but they are also horrible first approximations. Parents are supposed to be caregivers, employers are supposed to be source of opportunities, and governments are supposed to protect and safeguard the state and its people.

To me this looks like a self fulfilling prophecy, if you treat parents as primarily evil oppressors you are in part forcing them in that position, same with governments. Some parents and some governments are evil and should be treated as such, but having an a priori predisposition that they will become evil seems inefficient

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#33

Post by peroporque »

elchin wrote: post #4

"In reality, the German government has a double standard when it comes to the right to privacy. They will fully support that right if it's company's violating your privacy (especially, if they are American because protectionism) but in contrast, the German will give itself as many powers as it can to spy on its own citizens and those abroad." This.

That is the definition of government, a power monopoly, to avoid chaos. To obtain legitimacy to exercise that monopoly, we vote every couple of years. To avoid abuse, we split the power in three independent parts: legislative, executive, and judicial.

Not sure what you would prefer?

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#34

Post by raxxorrax »

dabbledash wrote: post #18
_Microft wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only double standards if one considers states and companies as being in the same position. A state and a company have vastly different goals. A state should care for its citizens, this includes protections against threats to public safety (terror, organized crime) and surveillance is a tool in the box for that. A company on the other hand, would have no issues fleecing people and abusing their power for profit…

You would think the Germans of all people would know better than to view the state with this kind of naivety. I don’t think the state is dangerous because it gets in the way of profit (though it can do that) but because it can directly oppress its people in all kinds of violent ways. The mitigating factor is supposed to be that people can hold their government accountable, but allow the government to snoop on everyon…

No, we do not. Problem is we have a lot of people that are a bit too critical and think everyone is out there to get them. In a most reactionary manner to those, we now have large groups that want to strengthen the state. In some cases that is justified as states loose out against companies when it comes to influence. But certainly a bad idea if you want it to control information.

A stereotype is that there is no gray in Germany and I start to believe there is some truth to that.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#35

Post by LockAndLol »

> Now you know how the Germans hate privacy, you will almost certainly be asking about alternative locations.

I don't know where this guy comes from but this has to be the most sensationalist sentence in that blog post. It's on par with "non Americans hate freedom". If Germans hated privacy, why would they be the biggest bandwidth contributors to the TOR network?

Not sure the author was using all of his brain when he wrote that blog post.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#36

Post by chickenpotpie »

LockAndLol wrote: post #35

> Now you know how the Germans hate privacy, you will almost certainly be asking about alternative locations. I don't know where this guy comes from but this has to be the most sensationalist sentence in that blog post. It's on par with "non Americans hate freedom". If Germans hated privacy, why would they be the biggest bandwidth contributors to the TOR network? Not sure the author was using all of his brain when he…

Devils advocate: if you hate tor you should try to contribute to the network as much as possible. The more you control it, the more you can exploit it when vulnerabilities are found.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#37

Post by dabbledash »

afiori wrote: post #32
dabbledash wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think the Germans of all people would know better than to view the state with this kind of naivety. I don’t think the state is dangerous because it gets in the way of profit (though it can do that) but because it can directly oppress its people in all kinds of violent ways. The mitigating factor is supposed to be that people can hold their government accountable, but allow the government to snoop on everyon…

I can't really bring myself to agree with this view of the world. To me it sounds like saying that parents are dangerous because they can mistreat children or that employers are dangerous because they can oppress employees. Obviously those are true statements, but they are also horrible first approximations. Parents are supposed to be caregivers, employers are supposed to be source of opportunities, and governments a…

Employers will be good to you if you have bargaining power, but employees who have none are often mistreated. That is why we need a competing source of power (the government!) to regulate employers. The government, like an employer, needs to be checked by something if it isn’t going to grow abusive.

Parents are somewhat different in that they tend to actually know and love their children. But even then we don’t give parents unchecked rights over their kids.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#38

Post by rhn_mk1 »

qayxc wrote: post #27
GekkePrutser wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't aware of that :( Which country would be best in your opinion? It seems it's becoming quite hard to find one that doesn't do this now.

There are none. Full stop. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just delusional.

This is a useless reply. There is no black and white, and the parent is asking about the shades of graay.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#39

Post by luckylion »

> The high number of high-speed relays and exits in Germany mean that it is not too uncommon to get both a German guard and exit. This gives the state an easier time if they want to target someone using traffic correlation attacks.

No, it doesn't. They'd need to control those computers, and they don't, do they? Because if they do, then "move your exit node somewhere else" won't help, because "you" are the state. And if they don't, no, I don't believe it's feasible for them to look at raw traffic (e.g. on the datacenter level) for two nodes in Germany and correlate individual data streams that may or may not be from one TOR connection.

> That also does not take in account the planned German law that will allow authorities to redirect traffic to state-owned servers, to infect users with viruses/Trojans.

They'd have to control the server though. They can't just decree that all TOR traffic must now be routed through their malicious endpoint. The laws are targeting ISPs and service providers and are for individual cases (i.e. "we know who's on the line") not for mass-infection, and will require a court order. They could do the individual surveillance with court order previously, what's new is that the provider can be forced to cooperate and proxy the traffic. It's still not applicable to TOR because it's not one large provider, and you can generally not say who's on the line.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#40

Post by skybrian »

afiori wrote: post #32
dabbledash wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think the Germans of all people would know better than to view the state with this kind of naivety. I don’t think the state is dangerous because it gets in the way of profit (though it can do that) but because it can directly oppress its people in all kinds of violent ways. The mitigating factor is supposed to be that people can hold their government accountable, but allow the government to snoop on everyon…

I can't really bring myself to agree with this view of the world. To me it sounds like saying that parents are dangerous because they can mistreat children or that employers are dangerous because they can oppress employees. Obviously those are true statements, but they are also horrible first approximations. Parents are supposed to be caregivers, employers are supposed to be source of opportunities, and governments a…

Yes, it's based on binary thinking. Can governments be trusted (yes/no)? But we can't correct for this by taking the opposite stance because that's also binary thinking.

We should be able to say that some institution are useful and necessary, and also that we need to guard against corruption and abuse, looking at the possible threats and how to mitigate them.

It also helps to make distinctions between different governments and different employers.

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