On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses • Hacker News Board

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#151

Post by jolux » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 6:33 AM UTC

mostlyghostly wrote: post #148

jolux wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that makes them assholes. I'm not in favor of giving bonuses to unethical assholes.

Is that before or after you learn that the typical severance for the people in question was less than a week's pay? So when it was "your turn", you're going to get tossed in the street with NOTHING to tide you over to your next gig. Still feel like letting your family starve for the sake of "loyalty"?

Which people?

I don’t have or want a family. And it’s not about loyalty to the company it’s about the other people working under me.

I have savings so I can afford to be unemployed, but still don’t understand your hypothetical.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#152

Post by jolux » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 6:34 AM UTC

selimthegrim wrote: post #146

jolux wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the real answer here is I'm not cut out to be an exec and I don't understand the mindset of people who are because I'm fine getting payed $100k a year (modulo inflation) for the rest of my life and I've lived most of my career at $30k, and I would never fire anyone to increase my own salary. I would sooner go broke at a company I ran than hang people out to dry who depended on me for a livelihood.

Never be a starting assistant professor then.

What does that have to do with any of this?

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#153

Post by jolux » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 6:35 AM UTC

mostlyghostly wrote: post #149

jolux wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If people insist on making choices that will continue to sink the ship, I don't have to go down with it. I think this calculus flips around when your commitment has entered a stage where other peoples' livelihoods depend on it, basically. That's all. Get out before it springs a leak in an org like that, is my advice.

My point is frequently your world descends into a flaming pile of shit unannounced. Go ask the career restaurant workers how the year is going. Go ask the tourism guides and travel agents. Go ask their bosses how they intend to keep the doors open with an 80% decline in revenue. Short answer: you can't.

I don’t understand what your point is. You think I don’t get this? This is a thread about giving executives bonuses when the company is going bankrupt.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#154

Post by jolux » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 6:37 AM UTC

cinquemb wrote: post #147

jolux wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, some things shouldn't fail. I would have less qualms about all of this stuff with a strong social safety net, but we don't have that in the US.

> I mean, some things shouldn't fail. This is just asking for rude awakenings. History is full of these kinds of events of where people thought things shouldn't fail, never prepared for them, and they did. > I would have less qualms about all of this stuff with a strong social safety net, but we don't have that in the US. No one lives in an environment where one can miss-allocate resources indefinitely or under assum…

> This is just asking for rude awakenings. History is full of these kinds of events of where people thought things shouldn't fail, never prepared for them, and they did.

When I say some things shouldn’t fail, I mean our collective ability to keep each other alive and well. Whatever business of the day can go fuck itself, I don’t care.

> No one lives in an environment where one can miss-allocate resources indefinitely or under assumptions that somethings can never change.

What assumptions are you talking about? I’m talking about welfare.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#155

Post by cinquemb » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 6:54 AM UTC

jolux wrote: post #154

cinquemb wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, some things shouldn't fail. This is just asking for rude awakenings. History is full of these kinds of events of where people thought things shouldn't fail, never prepared for them, and they did. > I would have less qualms about all of this stuff with a strong social safety net, but we don't have that in the US. No one lives in an environment where one can miss-allocate resources indefinitely or under assum…

> This is just asking for rude awakenings. History is full of these kinds of events of where people thought things shouldn't fail, never prepared for them, and they did. When I say some things shouldn’t fail, I mean our collective ability to keep each other alive and well. Whatever business of the day can go fuck itself, I don’t care. > No one lives in an environment where one can miss-allocate resources indefinitely…

> What assumptions are you talking about? I’m talking about welfare.

Welfare takes resources, takes people agreeing on what resources are acceptable for welfare and what is not, resources people have to produce and distrubute at some cost, takes people who may be better at managing such costs or inflating them to outsized proportions… any country that has deficits growing larger and larger every year can not continue to provide welfare indefinitely without making hard decisions that not all people will be ok with.

Some people may decide to leave for countries that are willing to make those hard decisions, rather than stay in those that want to punt on it until they face an analogous dynamic that Chinua Achebe has described pretty well.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#156

Post by AmericanChopper » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 7:11 AM UTC

brnt wrote: post #144

AmericanChopper wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It flies in the face of the traditional reasons given for the high pay of executives Without intervening regulations, there’s only ever two reasons any persons remuneration is whatever it happens to be. 1) The employer was willing to pay that amount for whatever value it is they see in that employee 2) The employee was willing to accept that amount for the job the employer offered them All employees try to get paid…

Unless I missed your sarcasm, this post is an excellent example of how economists and pooiticians can set the rules for how many people think in decades to come. They'll really start to behave in the ways prescribed by theories of toy models if you don't tell them anything else!

Ah of course. Supply and demand must just be some tyrannical social construct, imposed upon us by an invisible oppressor.

All it is is the price agreed upon by a party who wants to sell something, and another party who wants to buy it. The incentive of each party in the transaction is very obvious, and supply and demand is simply what occurs when people are allowed to choose how much they want to sell something for, and other people are allowed to choose how much they want to pay for it. Because there is no such thing as an objective measure of value, the only way you can ever measure it is via the value agreed upon by a buyer and a seller.

Supply and demand are the most fundamental forces at play in any economy (even centrally planned ones). Trying to get rid of it is as feasible as it would be to try and get rid of gravity.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#157

Post by onion2k » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 7:26 AM UTC

texasbigdata wrote: post #96

lend000 wrote: post #27

While it looks immoral if you don't understand the mechanics, people are simply responding to incentives around bankruptcy laws. Nobody wants to try to turn around a bankrupt company at their old salary (with their old RSU's and options now worthless). The real question is, should Chapter 11's even be allowed for corporations (as opposed to Chapter 7)? Shareholders vote for these because they know that in a Chapter 7…

This is patently false. 11s work. You know know how you can prove it? There’s less than a handful of chapter 22s (11, followed by an 11). Fundamentally it’s better for society for capital structure participants to get wiped out, including most non-wage perpetuation liabilities than for the company to just die. Greenspan wrote a sweeping history of American capitalism over 3 centuries (great book) and his belief was t…

American average wellbeing

Does that mean if Americans are, on average, deeply unhappy and far less well off than the median, it's evidence that the capitalist system is failing? Because I have some news for you...

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#158

Post by kirsebaer » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 7:35 AM UTC

lend000 wrote: post #55

thaumaturgy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you going to stick around and try to dig out the company without a retention bonus? No. You have a couple of times framed opposition to executive bonuses in these situations as "simple" and "emotional", while expressing an appreciation for "creative destruction". So, if an executive would rather leave than turn a company around while tightening their own belt -- especially given that some of these executives ca…

What you're describing sounds nice but apparently the incentives don't support it (perhaps because it's better to keep the people who know all about their company than contract execs who know nothing about the company or perhaps even the industry). I agree with part of what you are saying, hence my tirade about how Chapter 11 bankruptcy laws need reform. But what bothers me is that most people just assume the executi…

So if I am a key employee in a company that is going bankrupt, I should threaten to leave and then negotiate a large retention bonus based on how much it would hurt the company to lose me during the crisis.

Many people who are not part of the executive-clique would feel uncomfortable being so manipulative, especially while their colleagues are being laid off or taking pay cuts, but seems like that is just playing the game.

Seems like Chapter 11 is a good time for employees to join together and collectively demand increased salary (and say in executive decisions).

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#159

Post by fredophile » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 7:51 AM UTC

lend000 wrote: post #93

fredophile wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very high correlation between board membership and CEO experience. Who decides CEO compensation? The board. The players are making the rules and they're choosing rules that favour themselves.

[0] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/HTZ/holders?p=HTZ

Not really sure what your point is.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#160

Post by brnt » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 8:01 AM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #156

brnt wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I missed your sarcasm, this post is an excellent example of how economists and pooiticians can set the rules for how many people think in decades to come. They'll really start to behave in the ways prescribed by theories of toy models if you don't tell them anything else!

Ah of course. Supply and demand must just be some tyrannical social construct, imposed upon us by an invisible oppressor. All it is is the price agreed upon by a party who wants to sell something, and another party who wants to buy it. The incentive of each party in the transaction is very obvious, and supply and demand is simply what occurs when people are allowed to choose how much they want to sell something for,…

Ah, either perfect capitalsim, or centally planned economies, nothing in between and no shades of grey, exactly as promised in econ 101.

Oh boy... Well, at least you know how to attack straw men as well!