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On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

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Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#141
post #109
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So yes, it is immoral. Who did the immoral thing here? The executives don't set their own pay, and didn't necessarily ask for a bonus. What, you would decline the bonus and step down to restore your honor in their position? Doubtful. Meanwhile, the shareholders are giving bonuses which likely result in lower overall comps for these executives, after taking into account that the RSU's and options in their comp packa…

It's possible to have an immoral result without any individual doing an egregiously immoral thing. In fact it seems like a lot of law and corporate structure encourages these situations. Some examples that come to mind are paying low level employees such that they need government assistance, or situations where a corporation can break a law and profit more than whatever fine they might receive. Corporations are legal…

> Some examples that come to mind are paying low level employees such that they need government assistance

In many cases the alternative to paying that amount is outsourcing or automating the job. If the job can be automated for $8/hour then you can't pay $10, or your competitors will automate for $8 and put you out of business. But you can pay $7.25.

And where does this leave the employee? If they were willing to take a $7.25/hour job then presumably a higher paying job isn't available or they'd have taken it to begin with, so their alternative is unemployment, which is even more of a drain on public resources. (Recall that minimum wage was originally instituted as a racist policy to keep minorities unemployed.)

Meanwhile even for the subset of employers who can just pay more without reducing their domestic labor force, wage controls are still being paid for by other citizens in one way or another, e.g. through higher prices. So then the question is not whether other citizens are to subsidize the wages of workers who can't command a living wage in the market on their own, but rather which citizens pay for it. Do you want to put the cost on low income retail customers who then have to pay more for necessities through a minimum wage, or on wealthy taxpayers through a UBI or raising the EITC?

> or situations where a corporation can break a law and profit more than whatever fine they might receive.

This too is sometimes a reasonable outcome. Sometimes a fine exists because it costs society some amount if you do something.

Suppose there is a noise ordinance which imposes a $500 fine if you make too much noise and disturb your neighbors. A company has some equipment which doesn't make that much noise when it's operating but makes a loud racket which violates the ordinance if you hit the emergency stop. Then some idiot drops a bag of screws into the machine and the only way to stop it from destroying a million dollars in equipment is to hit the emergency stop and suffer the fine.

Then they should do it and pay the fine. The neighbors might be annoyed for a minute, but not so annoyed that it isn't overcome by them having to pay $500 less in taxes on net, which is the whole idea.

On the other hand, if the fine was only $5/day and as a result the company was operating a machine that continuously violated the noise ordinance 24/7, that would be a problem -- but the real problem then is that the fine is smaller than the harm, which is a failing of the government rather than the business.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#142
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this calculus flips around when your commitment has entered a stage where other peoples' livelihoods depend on it, basically. For you, not for others. > Get out before it springs a leak in an org like that, is my advice. I'll be fine for a long time even if the company goes under, others may not though, I've seen it happen way too many times to not be prepared for stuff like this. And I can just accept an o…

>For you, not for others. So I see. >I'll be fine for a long time even if the company goes under, others may not though, I've seen it happen way too many times to not be prepared for stuff like this. Yeah, and it's their problem up until the point at which the situation is unrecoverable without you, and even then it's still mostly theirs, but I would have a lot of hangups about acting in a situation like that.

> Yeah, and it's their problem up until the point at which the situation is unrecoverable without you, and even then it's still mostly theirs, but I would have a lot of hangups about acting in a situation like that.

It's business, things fail. The problem is that people have come to accept that things shouldn't fail has made it so that it has built up to the point where it is today. Id call this environment Dirac-delta solvency.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#143
post #27

While it looks immoral if you don't understand the mechanics, people are simply responding to incentives around bankruptcy laws. Nobody wants to try to turn around a bankrupt company at their old salary (with their old RSU's and options now worthless). The real question is, should Chapter 11's even be allowed for corporations (as opposed to Chapter 7)? Shareholders vote for these because they know that in a Chapter 7…

> Nobody wants to try to turn around a bankrupt company at their old salary

I'll take it a step further. Even in Chapter 7, you want to retain certain key people so debt holders can get the best return. Sale of assets and negotiating debt won't go as smoothly without those people, and the process could be tied up in bankruptcy court for years.

It's a job only specific people would do well it, and it's a job no one wants, hence the high pay.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#144
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody wants to try to turn around a bankrupt company at their old salary (with their old RSU's and options now worthless). Why not? These executives are paid considerably more than rank-and-file employees under normal circumstances, yet still manage to get bonuses when things turn sour. In contrast, that rank-and-file will be expected to take a pay cut, work more, or lose their livelihood. It flies in the face of…

> It flies in the face of the traditional reasons given for the high pay of executives Without intervening regulations, there’s only ever two reasons any persons remuneration is whatever it happens to be. 1) The employer was willing to pay that amount for whatever value it is they see in that employee 2) The employee was willing to accept that amount for the job the employer offered them All employees try to get paid…

Unless I missed your sarcasm, this post is an excellent example of how economists and pooiticians can set the rules for how many people think in decades to come. They'll really start to behave in the ways prescribed by theories of toy models if you don't tell them anything else!

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#145
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For you, not for others. So I see. >I'll be fine for a long time even if the company goes under, others may not though, I've seen it happen way too many times to not be prepared for stuff like this. Yeah, and it's their problem up until the point at which the situation is unrecoverable without you, and even then it's still mostly theirs, but I would have a lot of hangups about acting in a situation like that.

> Yeah, and it's their problem up until the point at which the situation is unrecoverable without you, and even then it's still mostly theirs, but I would have a lot of hangups about acting in a situation like that. It's business, things fail. The problem is that people have come to accept that things shouldn't fail has made it so that it has built up to the point where it is today. Id call this environment Dirac-del…

I mean, some things shouldn't fail. I would have less qualms about all of this stuff with a strong social safety net, but we don't have that in the US.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#146
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm keenly aware of the disparity. However... - If we do not keep the highly paid senior sales rep, we're going to have no customers and thus... everyone gets canned. - They are objectively better off leaving for another firm, where they don't need to worry about impending doom. So we need to provide an appropriate incentive to prevent them from breaking ranks and screwing everyone else left behind. - The humble fact…

I guess the real answer here is I'm not cut out to be an exec and I don't understand the mindset of people who are because I'm fine getting payed $100k a year (modulo inflation) for the rest of my life and I've lived most of my career at $30k, and I would never fire anyone to increase my own salary. I would sooner go broke at a company I ran than hang people out to dry who depended on me for a livelihood.

Never be a starting assistant professor then.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#147
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, and it's their problem up until the point at which the situation is unrecoverable without you, and even then it's still mostly theirs, but I would have a lot of hangups about acting in a situation like that. It's business, things fail. The problem is that people have come to accept that things shouldn't fail has made it so that it has built up to the point where it is today. Id call this environment Dirac-del…

I mean, some things shouldn't fail. I would have less qualms about all of this stuff with a strong social safety net, but we don't have that in the US.

> I mean, some things shouldn't fail.

This is just asking for rude awakenings. History is full of these kinds of events of where people thought things shouldn't fail, never prepared for them, and they did.

> I would have less qualms about all of this stuff with a strong social safety net, but we don't have that in the US.

No one lives in an environment where one can miss-allocate resources indefinitely or under assumptions that somethings can never change.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#148
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that event, most of the people in question will accept an offer from a competitor with greater assurances of financial security and return to loot and pillage what's left of the business on behalf of their new sponsors. If you're lucky, they merely poach the stuff you cannot defend anymore. In most situations, they come after the crown jewels of the business, accounts which create the lions share of the revenue an…

Well, that makes them assholes. I'm not in favor of giving bonuses to unethical assholes.

Is that before or after you learn that the typical severance for the people in question was less than a week's pay?

So when it was "your turn", you're going to get tossed in the street with NOTHING to tide you over to your next gig.

Still feel like letting your family starve for the sake of "loyalty"?

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#149
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I owe no loyalties to corporates, I have other interests that I would like to spend time on and pursue more than convincing stakeholders to make decisions that should have been made long ago to have them avoided being put in the position they are now. If people insist on making choices that will continue to sink the ship, I don't have to go down with it.

>If people insist on making choices that will continue to sink the ship, I don't have to go down with it. I think this calculus flips around when your commitment has entered a stage where other peoples' livelihoods depend on it, basically. That's all. Get out before it springs a leak in an org like that, is my advice.

My point is frequently your world descends into a flaming pile of shit unannounced.

Go ask the career restaurant workers how the year is going. Go ask the tourism guides and travel agents. Go ask their bosses how they intend to keep the doors open with an 80% decline in revenue.

Short answer: you can't.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#150
post #68

Of course they do. How else do you get people to stick around on a sinking ship? You and I wouldn't stay out of some sense of altruism, why would they? Heck, tech companies have to vest stock options over 4 years because most people would take the money and run. What does everyone think happens when everybody quits because there's no reason to work there? The money is just returned to investors? Even if that's all yo…

Those tasks are handled by people that report into the CxO’s. The executives set broader directions and hire people to keep the lights on. Use the money that would have been executive bonuses for retention packages that make sure the lights stay on. Honestly, even a juicy bonus isn’t going to keep many executives at a sinking ship unless they’re not able to find another job.

> for retention packages that make sure the lights stay on.

even you admit that people doing any work in a bankrupting company needs a retention package to continue working - why should the CEO (just another worker in a company) be any different? Why is their retention package somehow less important than the retention package that you proposed for the "keep the lights on" workers?

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