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Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

latimes.com

311–320 of 340 posts

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#311
post #222
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>American who at age 16 And you believe we should not treat minors different than Adults? this is another area where i disagree with many, as I 100% disagree with this modern trend of prosecuting teens as adults

> And you believe we should not treat minors different than Adults? Yes

Why? Do you lack the understanding of how the human mind develops?

I am curious also, do you support the trend of digging up 30 year old comments from peoples past and holding them to account for them, aka Cancel Culture?

I am wondering is this mentality is linked

I am a firm believer in second chances, automatic expungement of criminal records, and various other things that do not hang past mistakes over peoples head for the rest of their lives

One of those is having a separate system for juvenile's as when understand impulse control does not really form in humans until around 20-23 years of age.

I would like science to inform our justice system, not lizard brain emotions for revenge

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always going to be confusing but I believe "transgender woman" is unambiguously someone assigned male gender at birth who identifies as a woman.

What if a biological male is assigned female gender at birth? Would they be transgender, or just female?

They would continue to be male, forever. "Female" is a sex, not merely a gender identity.

At birth, nobody is "assigning" genders to you, they are attempting to observe your sex from primary sex characteristics. If they see vulva, they are observing a female; if they see penis/scrotum, they are observing a male.

While there are edge cases, it is generally pretty simple.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#314

> Prior to that, Ouchi said, his client felt compelled to take the pills because he feared that disobeying Wang would have a detrimental effect on his pending criminal case. Makes you wonder what all kind of shady medical shit is done in jails and prisons.

I have seen a cop order a medic to give sedative to a human that was being choked by said cops for more than 10 minutes (he was basically already dead when they injected him). Search for Tony Timpa on Youtube if you want to see the video. And they were joking while killing him. And last but not least, they all kept their jobs. All humans can be bastards.

And that's not a freak one-time event

www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/elijah-mcclain-was-injected-ketamine-while-handcuffed-some-medical-experts-n1232697

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#315
post #236
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retribution should not be a part of any justice system. As retribution is not justice. Restitution, Rehabilitation and isolation should be the 3 goals of a true justice system. Victims should have a path to restitution when possible (some crimes this is not) Criminals should have a path to rehabilitation when possible (some crimes this is not) For when the other 2 fail, Isolation is the final step, isolation means we…

You have made a series of claims, but not given any reasons to back them up. What theory of ethics/justice are you invoking, when you claim that retribution/deterrence is unethical and should not be a goal of our justice system. If a billionaire is found guilty of pedophilia, and offers to build for himself a lifetime "prison" that is really a 5-star resort, should he be allowed to do so? According to your argument,…

Saying retribution == deterrence is an extreme claim.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#316
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and went ahead with a treatment against scientific evidence Despite a lack of scientific evidence not against. Don't think this has been tested and disproved in a scientific manner. And for ethical reasons probably won't be. A relationship between male hormones and aggressive behavior while sometimes questioned is generally well supported. Yes that's not ODD but one can easily see the train of thought here. What th…

> A relationship between male hormones and aggressive behavior while sometimes questioned is generally well supported. That a relationship exist is well supported. The cause and effect, as per more modern research, however is one that more recent (ie > last 30 years) has found to be quite different than previous assumptions. Throw in a random number of test subjects in a room, observe aggressiveness, and then measure…

That high testosterone levels are a poor predictor of aggressiveness but almost universally present in violent criminals doesn't tell us much.

That behavior affects hormones, again, is interesting but doesn't tell us much.

What we're really discussing here is whether significantly cutting off testosterone would reduce aggressive behavior over time. That the relationship between testosterone levels and aggression isn't perfect is a nuisance.

For example reducing testosterone would reduce bodily strength significantly. Would that reduce aggression? Perhaps. Reducing testosterone is sometimes shown to increase empathy. Could empathy help reduce aggression? Perhaps. You could then argue that it's "not testosterone" and one should refrain from physical exercise and attend psychological empathy training to get the same effect. Logically it's a valid argument but practically speaking it misses the point.

The data we have from chemical castration of sex offenders is very solid. There are people criticizing it saying that something else is at play[0]. But nonetheless it's very effective in practice.

The data from animal experiments is strong too. There's definitely a profound change in behavior. Again, it's sometimes called into question over some oddly specific behaviors but it seems rather uninteresting to me.

In your later comment you mention some experiments from a long time ago on violent criminals but I have a hard time finding anything that isn't about sex offenders or animals. So I'd appreciate a link.

As far as theoretical arguments against it go, I'd say the strongest is that high levels are simply a proxy for some irreversible virilization that happened earlier in life. Which would much better explain why both criminal male and females are relatively high T.

[0] say that people who accept the treatment are naturally predisposed to have lower recidivism

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#317
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retribution should not be a part of any justice system. As retribution is not justice. Restitution, Rehabilitation and isolation should be the 3 goals of a true justice system. Victims should have a path to restitution when possible (some crimes this is not) Criminals should have a path to rehabilitation when possible (some crimes this is not) For when the other 2 fail, Isolation is the final step, isolation means we…

Retribution is perhaps the most intuitive — and the most questionable — aim of punishment in the criminal law. Quite contrary to the idea of rehabilitation and distinct from the utilitarian purposes of restraint and deterrence, the purpose of retribution is actively to injure criminal offenders, ideally in proportion with their injuries to society, and so expiate them of guilt. Why Is Retribution Used? The impulse to…

>>the purpose of retribution is actively to injure criminal offenders, ideally in proportion with their injuries to society

Eye for an Eye leaves everyone blind.

Further I have always taken issue with the concept of "injury to society", I am an individualist so to me society is just a bunch of individuals working under voluntary cooperation

Criminals injure an individual not society, thus any restitution is owed to individuals not society at large

>>The impulse to do harm to someone who does harm to you is older than human society, older than the human race itself

Granted however the entire purpose of civilization, especially western civilization is to become greater than are base instincts, to allow reason and logic to rule over emotion.

Civilization to me is not a conduit to "relinquish the personal right to act on this impulse, and transfer responsibility for retribution to some governing body" as no one has a personal right to act in retribution, and since no one has that right they have no ability to transfer that right to the governing body.

The only ethical use of force is in defense, imitation of force is always unethical

Fines should be in service to restitution, including a "pain and suffering" fine which is often viewed today as "punishment" but in reality is restitution for the victim(s).

The problem is we have removed the concept of restitution from the criminal system and leave it to the domain of civil law almost exclusively with a few exceptions (normally property crimes)

Incarceration should be about rehabilitation and/or removal from society as a defense not retribution. The Prison system should be humane, where inmates would not be physically abused by other inmates or guards, not be subjected to systematic physical or psychological abuse, should be provided basic nutrition, and health care, etc

This can not be said to be true for the US prison system today

It should also be a place to get mental health treatments, and even learn new skills or other methods to return as a productive member of society

>> the majority of the U.S. citizenry still holds that it's right to exact retribution on criminal offenders

This highlights why I will never support a direct democracy. Mob rule almost always the worst outcome

>>This is almost certainly true of the majority of victims

Which is why we separate victims from being judge and jury, emotional responses are not good for civilization

>>What rape victim does not wish to see her attacker suffer? What parent does not hate the one who killed their child?

Many, it is not uncommon for victims to want to see their attacker isolate, not not be able to hurt them or anyone else again. I believe it would be uncommon for victims to advocate torture, abuse or suffering. People that maintain this desire past a grieving or shock period psychologically are probably not far removed from the criminals they are waiting to abuse.

>>until the moral certainty of a majority of society points towards compassion rather than revenge, this is the form the criminal law must take.

No, I neither agree that the majority of society points to aggression nor agree that even if it did then that is the form society must take. As I said before mob rule is almost never the correct outcome. If you look back in history you will see all kinds of atrocities committed due to statements like the one you just made "Well the people demand it so we must do X".

The concept of human rights and equality demands we reject retribution as the basis of criminal justice

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> men pursuing a change in gender are expected to sign their name or initial in the box at least ten times in a row in order to receive their prescription This is not true, at least not anywhere I've gotten Estradiol. Also, while I'm sure you intended to be respectful with your comment, most people getting this treatment see themselves as women who are changing their bodies to match their gender, not as men who are c…

This comment should not be downvoted. HN have the smart people but does not have a basic knowledge how to be respectful and 'debating' about gender and biology.

[deleted]

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#319

In the US, the criminal justice system is not concerned primarily with reforming criminals or deterring future crimes. It’s concerned mostly with making the lives of people convicted or accused of crimes (many of whom are innocent or otherwise had extenuating circumstances) absolutely miserable, retribution taken to the extreme (tangentially, I’m not against retribution in principle, but don’t think it should always…

Let us not forget the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution . Involuntary servitude was abolished in the US for everyone except prisoners.

Depends on the state. A few states have abolished slavery for prisoners too.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#320
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. There was a pediatric cardiac surgeon in Winnipeg whose incompetence lead to the deaths of 12 children.[1] It got to the point that other physicians wouldn't even admit cardiac patients to keep them away from this doctor. Massive failures at every point in the system. Last I heard he's working at UCLA now. There are bad actors everywhere. We don't condemn the Canadian healthcare system because of people like…

I googled the name of the malpracticing surgeon, and found a LinkedIn profile for a surgeon who works at UCLA has the same name as the surgeon in Winnipeg, but the other details don't match. I think these are two different people.

The last mention of his move to UCLA was more than a decade ago so could have moved on.[1]

[1]https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ucla-aware-of-odim-s-winnipeg...

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