Live data from Hacker News

TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

asia.nikkei.com

341–350 of 433 posts

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#341
post #325
post #260

I see this news as a loss for the US. It has to resort to regulations to stop TSMC from doing business with Huawei. When you can't incentivize your ally, that means your opponent's business is still very attractive. Regulations will only cripple your ally. Taiwan may comply on the outside. But inside, they'll cut under-the-table deals with China. They'll find loop holes to skirt regulations. Taiwan seems to be headin…

The US will defend Taiwan by any means necessary, including nuclear options. If they don't, they've already lost to China. Chip superiority is everything. If the US can't manufacture or source modern chips then it's over for them. US leaders and the military know this to be true. Taiwan is not Hong Kong. The US doesn't need Hong Kong. The US needs Taiwan.

> The US will defend Taiwan by any means necessary

Under a normal president, sure. Under this one, who can’t decide if he hates China or loves Xi? All fucking bets are off

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#342
post #327
post #3

article conveniently doesnt mention the fact that huawei's 5g chip isnt sourced from an American design, rather its the Balong 5000 which has been around since january of 2019. the 16 nm chipset can easily be cranked out from Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation (SMIC) in mainland china, which is capable of 14nm runs. barring that, GlobalFoundries as they havent expressed any serious interest in Amer…

According to the US DoJ they use technology which was stolen from US companies, so it's at least partially American design.

5G design stolen from America..sure

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#343
post #280
post #116

The founder of SMIC on the mainland is actually Taiwanese and a former TSMC executive. Loyalties cut across the strait both ways, westerners overemphasis attachment to values and ideology over bloodlines and ancestry. It's true for some but not for others. There are quite a lot of foreign engineers working on the mainland, especially Taiwanese engineers. If you are a industry vet or got some kind of special talent yo…

Anecdotal, but...I don't know a single person who is interested in either returning to China or starting a new life there, and my social circles are overwhelmingly Chinese of all types (born here or Vancouver, moved here in grade school and grew up here, moved here for grad school, moved here as H1-Bs from PRC/Taiwan/HK/SG). For the ones who did not grow up here, they're predominantly from Beijing and Shanghai, with…

> My girlfriend (Beijing-born, came over as a grad student and stayed) has told me several horror stories of her time spent working as a SWE in China and Singapore.

What happened in Singapore? I moved here earlier this year but haven't heard much beyond the usual grumbling about long hours.

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#344
post #116

The founder of SMIC on the mainland is actually Taiwanese and a former TSMC executive. Loyalties cut across the strait both ways, westerners overemphasis attachment to values and ideology over bloodlines and ancestry. It's true for some but not for others. There are quite a lot of foreign engineers working on the mainland, especially Taiwanese engineers. If you are a industry vet or got some kind of special talent yo…

Maybe this is history repeating itself: the story of the father of Chinese space program [1] was quite pertinent:

> During WWII, he was involved in the Manhattan Project, which ultimately led to the successful development of the first atomic bomb in America.

> During the Second Red Scare, in the 1950s, the US federal government accused him of communist sympathies. In 1950, despite protests by his colleagues, he was stripped of his security clearance. He decided to return to China...

> Upon his return, he helped lead the Chinese nuclear weapons program. This effort ultimately led to China's first successful atomic bomb test and hydrogen bomb test, making China the fifth nuclear weapons state, and achieving the fastest fission-to-fusion development in history.

> Qian was invited to visit the US ..., but he refused the invitation, having wanted a formal apology for his detention. In a reminiscence published in 2002, Marble stated that he believed Qian had "lost faith in the American government" but that he had "always had very warm feelings for the American people."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intersection between South side Chicago resident and semiconductor expert is vanishingly small. Those who grow up in a disaffected part of the US and go on to study EE or CS do so through a US college opportunity which will funnel them into a US semiconductor job where they will be treated better than the treatment dark skinned people get in China. It’s common for restaurants in major Chinese cities to have “No B…

The linked article has no pictures of the sign. I have friends living in Shenzhen, I asked them, and they said they never saw such signs. It could be that they are visiting different groups of restaurants or hotels etc.

If you had bothered to read the article, not only would you have seen the linked image and video[1], you'd have also read the tomes of evidence that goes against your anecdote.

[1] https://twitter.com/BlackLivityCN/status/1249011762638266374

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#346
post #342
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the US DoJ they use technology which was stolen from US companies, so it's at least partially American design.

5G design stolen from America..sure

Huawei had an encrypted email address explicitly for stolen trade secrets and offered bonuses up to employees who delivered stolen tech and secrets. [1]

[1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-telecommunications-de...

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#347
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really second tier [1], just holding nuclear weapon [2] and good brainwashing by state media. Economically far behind [3]. Nothing to gain with direct confrontation, no TSMC in Crimea, wars for prestige should be successful. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_we... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_…

When talking about war, the only measure more useless and irrelevant than GDP and economic strength is toenail length. Afghanistan is sitting at around $500/capita. Russia and the US have completely failed there despite four decades of conflict. Vietnam was about $60-70 during the tail end of the Vietnam War[1]. We know how that ended. I'd say that maybe you could win if you abandoned traditional war tactics and just…

So you are comparing Afghanistan and Russia, my point actually

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#348
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This piece smells like ccp propaganda. Read the above after considering those muslims who are chained in a ccp re-education center in china. @Dang can you investigate this. I feel like the ccp is directly targeting hacker news to spread misinformation. Very scary.

You are quite delusional to think dang will take down CCP material. According to him, anti-ccp content is equivalent to inciting 'nationalistic flame wars'.

People are welcome to post critical views as long as they do so thoughtfully—same as on any topic.

It's an obvious fact that nationalistic passions are inflamed these days and getting worse. That inevitably shows up on HN and leads to low-quality, denunciatory comments and even outright slurs. We need to try for better than that.

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#349
post #116

The founder of SMIC on the mainland is actually Taiwanese and a former TSMC executive. Loyalties cut across the strait both ways, westerners overemphasis attachment to values and ideology over bloodlines and ancestry. It's true for some but not for others. There are quite a lot of foreign engineers working on the mainland, especially Taiwanese engineers. If you are a industry vet or got some kind of special talent yo…

This piece smells like ccp propaganda. Read the above after considering those muslims who are chained in a ccp re-education center in china. @Dang can you investigate this. I feel like the ccp is directly targeting hacker news to spread misinformation. Very scary.

You guys need to understand that there are many categories of users who might post something like that in good faith.

First, a lot of Westerners hold anti-Western views—for whatever reason. This leads them to pro-China positions as a matter of tactics—the enemy of my enemy etc.

Second, a lot of Westerners hold anti-US views. That's similar to category 1 but different. We see this from some Canadian, Australian, and European users, and of course even from some American users—again, for whatever reason; people are complicated. This sort of user will also take China's side in a China/US conflict, for reasons of their own that have nothing to do with being Chinese communists.

Third, there are Westerners of Chinese background, either immigrants or children of immigrants, who have pro-China views because they identify with the Chinese dimension of their family history. Sometimes the children of immigrants have more strident views on these things than their parents. Where the parents naturally sought to fit in as immigrants in the West, the next generation tries to balance the two worlds by leaning back towards the country of origin. This group is the most likely to sound like "CCP propaganda" because they have deep knowledge of the culture and usually the language. And of course, if they're first-generation immigrants, their English may not sound native.

Fourth, there are Westerners of non-Chinese background who have spent a lot of time in China, usually for work (less often for travel), who developed pro-Chinese views, or complex/ambivalent views, simply by the natural process of having spent time there. This sort of user often feels like their fellow Westerners have a cartoonish and ignorant view of China, and wants to educate them. Sometimes they 'educate' them by insulting their ignorance, which is unhelpful. These users have native English and can sound like ardent propagandists as well, but actually their motive is to correct what they perceive as a distortion in Western public opinion. Their own views tend to be critical of the CCP, but they dislike what they regard as ignorant anti-Chinese views, and so will argue a pro-China position out of contrarianism. They tend to favor friendly trade and political relations with China, and since the trend of the last few years has been clearly against that, they can come across as rather aggrieved.

Fifth, there are many people who grew up in China, who came to the West for school (or work) and stayed here. Often they are caught between two worlds—having to defend the West and their choice to stay there to their families back home, and at the same time struck painfully by the ignorance, misunderstanding and hostility that they encounter about China here. HN has such users and they are in a difficult position: vastly outnumbered on intense, divisive questions that they happen to have deep personal experience of.

Sometimes these categories also intersect: for example there are Canadian children of Chinese-Canadian immigrants who speak Mandarin and have spent time working at tech companies in China. Their views come from having grown up in a Chinese-Canadian family and having spent time in China itself, and they feel demeaned and even slurred by the generalizations about China that they see on Western internet forums. They show up in the threads with counterarguments, and their counterarguments are often intensely detailed because they have so much personal experience with the topics.

Can you see how complex this situation is? Each of these categories is a minority on HN, but HN is big enough that 'minority' can still mean thousands of people, any of whom may comment in a thread like this—and no doubt there are additional categories that I didn't list (edit: here's another: Westerners with Chinese spouses). Any of these users can post what seem like absurdly pro-CCP comments in a HN thread, for complicated reasons that come from their own life experience. When they do that, other users run into their comments with no idea of the background that would lead someone to post that way, and it creates a shock experience. (For more on the shock experience, see [1] and [2]). Basically, they go 'WTF?' and wonder how anyone could possibly post like this.

Now here comes the pivot in the whole business. When you experience that 'WTF?', you have two choices. First choice, you can say "wow, I wonder how different our experiences must be that you would post what seems to me like such an obviously wrong and evil comment!" That fork leads to curious conversation in which people get to know each other better. Second choice, you can say "You must be a communist party shill! No one would post like this for any other reason! How much are they paying you?" Which percentage of HN users makes the first choice vs. the second choice? Exercise for the reader.

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#350
post #13

SMIC, the mainland supplier expected to replace TSMC, successfully IPOs with a massive jump: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/16/smic-chinas-biggest-chipmake... JUL 15 2020 SMIC, China’s biggest chipmaker, saw its shares surge 245% at the open on its first day of trade in Shanghai. SMIC issued issuing 1,685,620,000 shares at 27.46 yuan per share, raising 46.28 billion yuan ($6.62 billion). Shares were trading at 95 yuan…

SMIC isn't close to the same node as TSMC. A competitive high-end SOC could not be manufacured by them.

When Intel refused to make Apple's ARM processor for iPhones, TSMC was also unable to build a competitive high-end SOC. And yet 13 years later, here we are. Of course, Intel and TSMC both shop with ASML, and that's not a possibility anymore for SMIC, so it's not a quite similar comparison...

Yet I think it's important to keep some perspective: this Chinese/US spat is not a championship where a winner will be declared at the end of the summer. There's no reason to believe that 50 years from now either China or US will have collapsed. Xi Jinping dictatorial inclinations [1] are a threat of course, as he might decide to consolidate his power at the expense of China. But US recent [2] trend of politicians running on the hate of the other half of the US population is also a tremendous existential threat.

In any case, assuming that both US and China still stand 50 years from now, the only way for TSMC, Samsung or even Intel to stay ahead is, well, to stay ahead. It's a never-ending marathon, and in that regard funneling Huawei money into SMIC sounds very counter-productive.

[1] Moreso than his predecessors IMHO, with the notable exception of Mao. And indeed, Mao was very good at keeping China poor, underdeveloped and starving.

[2] Is it really recent? I'm French, during my two stays in the US (first time 3 years, second time 5 years) I felt a major polarization of the population, but it might have been there all along and I simply didn't notice.

Post reply on HN