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Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

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Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#121

Post by [deleted] »

vharuck wrote: post #39
rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

>Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? There's a very good chance there are people whose quality of life would be drastically diminished if they had to share an apartment. Off the top of my head, those with embarrassing or inconvenient medical issues, single parents, people who always feel some level of stress around other people (there are a…

[deleted]

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#122

Post by throwaway53457 »

thephyber wrote: post #93
throwaway53457 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is likely one of the unintended side effects of 1) women entering the workforce 2) higher retirement age. With double the supply, it meant you could no longer raise a family on a single income, because the money is shared between more people.

> With double the supply ... In a multivariable equation, you can't only look at one variable and call it a day. How much has demand changed? How much has the population of the USA grown? How many immigrants has the US taken in? How much more efficient is each marginal employee in a blue collar job now compared to then? How well do USA exports compete with other countries? How well does the USD exchange rate compete…

I wasn't looking at a single variable, I was looking at two. You're right of course. The problem is many of those things you're referring to (e.g. cost of living) is directly influenced by said supply. People aren't having families as much, but that means there's now an oversupply of expensive family homes.)

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#123

Post by [deleted] »

standardUser wrote: post #10
rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

Look at it from the other direction. Is working 40 hours per week but not being able to afford a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment a goal we want to set? If so, we have achieved it! I think most of us like the idea that if you put in 40 hours of work every week, regardless of the specific job, you are able to afford a basic standard of living.

[deleted]

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#124

Post by paulryanrogers »

worik wrote: post #70
SECProto wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since local zoning laws effectively rule out boarding houses (or other affordable living spaces) in most of North America, 1BR is essentially the entry level in most jurisdictions.

Hence minimum wage workers are homeless

Or forced to share a place with roommates

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#125

Post by albatross »

I feel like a lot of the debates going on in the comments here are missing the forest for the trees here:

Those with much money have too much of it, and those with little have too little. The issue here isn't "the poor need more handouts," but rather, "the richer need fewer."

And on that note, I have heard the arguments "hard work will take you far" and "startup CEOs are the hardest working people I know" too many times to count, almost always from people in tech. Single parents working two or more minimum wage (or potentially less if you happen to be undocumented) jobs to feed their children work as hard or harder than any CEO just to get by with the bare minimum. I don't disagree that those who work harder should be rewarded more than those who choose not to, but in what world is the system we all exist in an actual meritocracy?

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#126

Post by prepend »

bonestormii_ wrote: post #50
prepend wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Start with the assumption that people need to be able to afford a place to live, and that a full time job should be able to achieve that. Do you agree? For me, it’s the definition of a minimum place to live. When I was young, I had roommates. I don’t think every working person should be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment. There are multi family dwellings, studios, boarding rooms, etc. If I’m by myself and making…

> When I was young, I had roommates. I don’t think every working person should be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment. Not everyone working minimum wage is doing it "when they were young." Do you really think it's a good objective for a 55 year old cook for a non-profit organization to be living with room mates? Would you want that? The solution is there if you are willing to reduce the wealth generated by investmen…

I want saying that only young make minimum wage, I was saying that I’ve been there and I understand.

Of course 55 year old me doesn’t want roommates, but if I have to do it for a few years then I will.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#127

Post by prepend »

bonestormii_ wrote: post #72
pb7 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you really think it's a good objective for a 55 year old cook for a non-profit organization to be living with room mates? Would you want that? This, like many others, does not sound like a job that warrants minimum wage so no.

It's not an example chosen at random. It's a real example.

It may be real, I believe you, but cool for non/profit isn’t a mandatory job.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#128

Post by centimeter »

caconym_ wrote: post #66
centimeter wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all 40-hour-a-week jobs are valuable enough to support a high adult standard of living. If adults are still doing those jobs, it’s not a problem with the jobs.

Where do you believe the problem lies?

The people who can’t perform labor worth more than a few dollars an hour.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#129

Post by centimeter »

anm89 wrote: post #87
centimeter wrote: post #41

More accurate: “Minimum wage workers can’t rent a two bedroom and have 70% of their income left over.” Ok; rent a one-bedroom, have a roommate, whatever. Having your own apartment with a guest room isn’t a reasonable thing to expect on the lowest tier of work available. The lowest-value labor in the market being able to support a middle-class lifestyle isn’t a sane thing to expect, by definition. It’s tautologically…

This is not true. There is no law of physics guaranteeing some standard income distribution over a society. There at least hypothetically exists societies with very minimal or no income inequality although in practice this is extremely unlikely. The idea however that the bottom n% of some society have to skew with x deviation from the mean or median is not exactly correct. And the idea that some segment of society wi…

A power law distribution is the expected organic distribution of income and wealth, due to the nature of scale free networks. Only in the presence of massive distortion is that distribution likely to collapse at current technology levels.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#130

Post by cameronbrown »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #117
cameronbrown wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the real issue. Imo: there's not enough upwards mobility in jobs because people are retiring later in life. We need to make it cheaper to retire and for workforces to move up the ladder. I know this sounds elitist, but when I worked in a shop, I didn't expect to be able to afford a house.

Just musing a bit further, there are multiple ways you could attack this. For instance, you could also encourage people to work shorter hours—we've all become much more productive in the past century, so why are we still working 40 hours a week at minimum?

Because we don't sell units of productivity - we're selling units of labour. If I don't sell 40 hours per week, somebody else will.
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