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Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

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Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#91

Post by einpoklum »

rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

> Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set?

Well, it's one of three possible goals:

1. Any worker can afford a roof over his/her head with their wage.

2. Universal public housing.

3. Millions of homeless people.

I actually think (2.) is just as important as (1.), but the US isn't very keen on economic activity for public benefit. Then again, it often seems like it's leaning towards (3.) ...

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#92

Post by bonestormii_ »

thephyber wrote: post #86
bonestormii_ wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can that be, exactly? If it's "extensively regulated", then why is it so expensive? Can you point to a relationship between capping the price and inflating it? They seem to be inversely related.

Regulation isn't always about rent price caps. In the US, cities frequently have "zoning requirements" so it's very difficult to get a new high-density structure built in a neighborhood of 1-floor single family homes. Also, NIMBY groups usually have a veto vote of sorts, which makes it more expensive for a real estate developer to come into a pre-existing neighborhood and make more units (because it's a gamble and us…

> Even when there is a rental price cap, that tends to only work in the short term and exacerbates supply/demand problems long term. San Francisco, for example, implemented a rent control system in ~1980. Since then, only 40% of rental units are eligible for rent control and lots of potential rentals stay off the rental market. There are loopholes which allow conversion of a rent-controlled unit to a market-priced rental and no new built units are rent controlled, so there is a bifurcation of the market. Rent controlled units are very affordable, but increasingly scarce. Market priced units are growing (slowly) in numbers, but cost 2x - 5x what a comparable rent-controlled unit does.

True, there are real supply issues in some very hot markets, but few markets are like San Francisco.

So--why do you say that the price cap is what exacerbates the supply/demand problems long term, when you clearly understand the issue is that there are loopholes being utilized to reclassify units to get the back to market price? Those loop holes aren't accidents--the NIMBY groups put them there intentionally. But they aren't just NIMBY--they are also private investors who do not even live there.

I'm all for building additional housing to meet demand in general. However, it does need to be done carefully. By that I mean, upgrading train stations, roads, grocery options, etc. in order to deal with the increase in population. You can't just add 15,000 people to a neighborhood and not add parking or public transit capacity.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#93

Post by thephyber »

throwaway53457 wrote: post #64
flukus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? It's not a goal we set but it's one we mostly achieved none the less, depending on your specific area and minimum wage. A blue collar (minimum - low wage) worker used to be able buy a house and raise a family on a single income. People are poorer than they were decades ago, at least where it counts.

This is likely one of the unintended side effects of 1) women entering the workforce 2) higher retirement age. With double the supply, it meant you could no longer raise a family on a single income, because the money is shared between more people.

> With double the supply ...

In a multivariable equation, you can't only look at one variable and call it a day.

How much has demand changed?

How much has the population of the USA grown?

How many immigrants has the US taken in?

How much more efficient is each marginal employee in a blue collar job now compared to then?

How well do USA exports compete with other countries?

How well does the USD exchange rate compete with the currencies of those other exporting countries?

How much have the average work benefits changed over the same period of time?

How much has the US cost of living grown?

What is the US labor participation rate?

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#94

Post by user5994461 »

rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

A one bedroom is around 600€ a month in all the major French cities. The country is very homogeneous with salaries tightly coupled to the minimum wage.

Paris might be around 1200€ I think for a similar 1 bedroom but I am not very familiar with Paris. Maybe 1000-1500 depending on commute and location.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#95

Post by rayiner »

sanderjd wrote: post #67
rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re begging the question. Is having your own 1BR apartment a “basic standard of living”? When did we decide that? Is that a goal other developed countries have set and achieved? Those are the pertinent questions, not what ideas “we like.” According to the study, that standard would require a $30-40 minimum wage in places like New York. Is that something any country has done?

Your argument here seems very circular to me. You ask "when did we decide that?". That implies that there is some discrete point in time in the past when societal decisions are made. But that's not how societies work, not how politics work. The way it works is that we are continuously "deciding" things like this, through conversations like the one here, and articles like the one we're talking about. It doesn't make s…

No, the framing of the article is disingenuous. If you want to make an argument that someone working minimum wage should be able to live in a separate 1BR, go ahead and make that argument. But that’s not what the article does. It claims there is a “housing affordability crisis” because minimum wage workers can’t afford an average 1 or 2 bedroom apartment. That isn’t an argument for raising the standard. It acts like we have already decided on that higher standard.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#96

Post by rayiner »

user5994461 wrote: post #94
rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

A one bedroom is around 600€ a month in all the major French cities. The country is very homogeneous with salaries tightly coupled to the minimum wage. Paris might be around 1200€ I think for a similar 1 bedroom but I am not very familiar with Paris. Maybe 1000-1500 depending on commute and location.

So 600 euros is more than 30% of the French minimum wage. Is it expected that a minimum wage worker in France can live alone in a 1 bedroom apartment?

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#97

Post by thephyber »

eikenberry wrote: post #12
falcolas wrote: post #5

There's an important caveat, before everyone jumps on the title by itself: > The report, released Tuesday, defines “affordable” as spending no more than 30% of monthly income on rent, in line with what most budgeting experts recommend. The second caveat is this is rent for a 2 bedroom apartment; though they do say that it's also ~95% of 1 bedroom apartments. No comment is made on studio apartments or having roommates…

> No comment is made on studio apartments or having roommates. To me this is the most telling part. When you are poor you need to have one or more roommates to afford housing and this is not new. What is wrong with roommates? I do think the US could use more small/studio apartment options for those who have a bit more money and prefer to live alone. I lived in a small studio once and enjoyed it, though I usually had…

> What is wrong with roommates?

Perhaps it's just a reasonable limitation placed on the analysis because without it the data isn't as valuable to make conclusions from.

I'm not sure that statement here is necessarily a cultural desire (although I do know people who didn't want roommates, even as young single adults).

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#98

Post by gremlinsinc »

pb7 wrote: post #61
bonestormii_ wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I was young, I had roommates. I don’t think every working person should be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment. Not everyone working minimum wage is doing it "when they were young." Do you really think it's a good objective for a 55 year old cook for a non-profit organization to be living with room mates? Would you want that? The solution is there if you are willing to reduce the wealth generated by investmen…

> Do you really think it's a good objective for a 55 year old cook for a non-profit organization to be living with room mates? Would you want that? This, like many others, does not sound like a job that warrants minimum wage so no.

Double min wage is $16/hour.

If the recommended rent is 30% of your income... well, the most you could afford on twice minimum wage is $768.

Where I'm at the cheapest rentals are 900 or so (rural utah).

Seems to me it takes almost 3x minimum wage just to really be able to live comfortably, and many will never get to that level, because they already work 2-3 jobs just to keep a roof over the heads of their children.

There's a reason that $75k is the 'happiness level', it really is the lowest of the low wages that will make someone feel like they're not poor and 'needy' and over-worked, etc... That should be our goal, to get us to that level for everyone over 25 who isn't in school. (Or able to reach that w/ a full-time job (even at McDonalds) + GBI/UBI)

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#99

Post by rayiner »

bonestormii_ wrote: post #50
prepend wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Start with the assumption that people need to be able to afford a place to live, and that a full time job should be able to achieve that. Do you agree? For me, it’s the definition of a minimum place to live. When I was young, I had roommates. I don’t think every working person should be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment. There are multi family dwellings, studios, boarding rooms, etc. If I’m by myself and making…

> When I was young, I had roommates. I don’t think every working person should be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment. Not everyone working minimum wage is doing it "when they were young." Do you really think it's a good objective for a 55 year old cook for a non-profit organization to be living with room mates? Would you want that? The solution is there if you are willing to reduce the wealth generated by investmen…

> The solution is there if you are willing to reduce the wealth generated by investment properties for an already much wealthier investment class. How do you justify your priorities ethically?

Do you think the world works according to ethical priorities or market forces? Imagine if engineers could use similar logic as political theorists. We could will our airplanes to fly by setting the right priorities!

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#100

Post by user5994461 »

black_puppydog wrote: post #63
rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

Paris is expensive, but I've rented studio apartments here in Grenoble, France, for about 450eur, yes. Given, Grenoble is nothing of not a small town compared to Paris. But those apartments were also in the very heart of the city, one was directly at the river with a panorama view of the alps. edit since these details matter here: two apartments in question. One was a 1R without, the other a Studio with amazing view.…

For 400-450 you get a studio (think less than 25 sqm 270 sqft ). Typical student accommodation. That's absolutely not what US/UK call a 1 bedroom.

A one bedroom is about 600€ a month.

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