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Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

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Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#51

Post by deathanatos »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #3

Am I misreading this: the conclusion is that the lowest earners cannot afford 40th percentile rents?

Yes, and no. Directly yes. But no, because the numbers are so insanely over I question whether they can afford 30th or 20th percentile too.

It smells like the 40th-%tile is the number that the data exists for. I would welcome graphs showing this data at other %-tiles, and whether that changes the outlook significantly.

But the report puts ~50% of the workforce below the national housing wage for a 1-bed. 50% of the workforce cannot all obtain better than 40th %-tile rents.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#52

Post by bonestormii_ »

rayiner wrote: post #49
bonestormii_ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked a lot in a rental market with a very active housing subsidy program, I agree that the administration of such programs is an actual nightmare, but you really are missing the point I think. Start with the assumption that people need to be able to afford a place to live, and that a full time job should be able to achieve that. Do you agree? Now, if we both agree that a housing subsidy program is an adminis…

Countries and places with the most extensive housing regulation have some of the most unaffordable housing. Stockholm’s housing market, for example, is a basket case.

How can that be, exactly? If it's "extensively regulated", then why is it so expensive? Can you point to a relationship between capping the price and inflating it? They seem to be inversely related.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#53

Post by cameronbrown »

centimeter wrote: post #38
standardUser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at it from the other direction. Is working 40 hours per week but not being able to afford a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment a goal we want to set? If so, we have achieved it! I think most of us like the idea that if you put in 40 hours of work every week, regardless of the specific job, you are able to afford a basic standard of living.

Not all 40-hour-a-week jobs are valuable enough to support a high adult standard of living. If adults are still doing those jobs, it’s not a problem with the jobs.

This is the real issue. Imo: there's not enough upwards mobility in jobs because people are retiring later in life. We need to make it cheaper to retire and for workforces to move up the ladder. I know this sounds elitist, but when I worked in a shop, I didn't expect to be able to afford a house.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#54

Post by scarface74 »

I’ve got a better idea than worrying about the minimum wage. At least for people who are working - get rid of food stamps, get rid of housing subsidies and don’t raise the minimum wage to make it a “Livable wage”. What a livable wage is to my teenage son staying at home is not a livable wage for a single mother of two.

It’s no more should be the private sectors responsible to provide a wage that is far beyond market value than it should be the private sector’s responsibility to provide health insurance.

Just like we should have universal healthcare to take that responsibility out of the hands of private industry, we should also expand the Earned Income Tax Credit to provide a “livable wage” because it already makes a distinction between my son staying at home and the single mother of two. If we just gave people cash through the EITC and expanded it to encompass food stamps and housing subsidies, it would both ease the administrative burdens on the government and get rid of the nanny state that tells recipients who can live with them and what type of food they should buy.

Of course business taxes would have to be raised to support it - maybe. It might be the case where demand side economics would make the entire pie bigger.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#55

Post by dang »

yeahAL09 wrote: post #44
eggsmediumrare wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't we want that? Isn't the point of progress to improve life for everyone?

rayiner is an American lawyer with heavy bias to tradition in that context. If America changes too much, all that legal education goes to waste. It’s biologically motivated self selection. “Keep the laws and norms from changing, or my influence!”

Personal attacks aren't allowed and will get you banned here, so please don't.

Also, while I have you: could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#56

Post by bonestormii_ »

monadic2 wrote: post #17
rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

> A federal program would basically mean bureaucrats from these states would be imposing housing policy on the whole country. Funny way to put "providing housing for its own citizens".

I'm for regulation of the housing industry, but he's not wrong that public housing policy is a shit show. What he is wrong about is that landlords actually prefer it this way, because they prefer subsidies to pricing regulation.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#57

Post by eikenberry »

dumbfoundded wrote: post #37
eikenberry wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No comment is made on studio apartments or having roommates. To me this is the most telling part. When you are poor you need to have one or more roommates to afford housing and this is not new. What is wrong with roommates? I do think the US could use more small/studio apartment options for those who have a bit more money and prefer to live alone. I lived in a small studio once and enjoyed it, though I usually had…

It depends on what the goal should be. Having roommates is fun when you're 20 something. Not when you're trying to support a family.

Minimum wage is not designed to provide enough income to support a family. It it intended to prevent labor abuse.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#58

Post by SECProto »

rayiner wrote: post #16
standardUser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at it from the other direction. Is working 40 hours per week but not being able to afford a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment a goal we want to set? If so, we have achieved it! I think most of us like the idea that if you put in 40 hours of work every week, regardless of the specific job, you are able to afford a basic standard of living.

You’re begging the question. Is having your own 1BR apartment a “basic standard of living”? When did we decide that? Is that a goal other developed countries have set and achieved? Those are the pertinent questions, not what ideas “we like.” According to the study, that standard would require a $30-40 minimum wage in places like New York. Is that something any country has done?

Since local zoning laws effectively rule out boarding houses (or other affordable living spaces) in most of North America, 1BR is essentially the entry level in most jurisdictions.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#59

Post by II2II »

rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

Where does the article make mention of no other householders?

If anything, the article suggests the opposite. It notes that the average minimum wage earner would need to work 97 hours for a two bedroom, and 79 hours for a one bedroom. That reflects two full time minimum wage incomes: a working couple for a one bedroom, and a working couple with children for a two bedroom.

It is also worth noting that this is a very privileged position in many cases. If you are a committed couple, are rooming with a close friend or family member, or fit a limited number of other circumstances - this may be acceptable. Otherwise, it is effectively saying that it is okay to expose minimum wage earners at greater risk because, well, they are minimum wage earners.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#60

Post by warmfuzzykitten »

And yet, almost all workers live somewhere. Common strategies not mentioned in the article:

1. They live in areas with below average rents.

2. They allocate more than 30% of income to rent.

3. They find other workers to share rent with.

4. They live in studio apartments instead of 1-2 bedroom.

5. They live in rooms instead of whole apartments.

6. They live with family.

7. They live in an inherited home.

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