Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state • Hacker News Board

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#41

Post by centimeter » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 10:30 PM UTC

More accurate: “Minimum wage workers can’t rent a two bedroom and have 70% of their income left over.” Ok; rent a one-bedroom, have a roommate, whatever. Having your own apartment with a guest room isn’t a reasonable thing to expect on the lowest tier of work available.

The lowest-value labor in the market being able to support a middle-class lifestyle isn’t a sane thing to expect, by definition. It’s tautologically impossible, unless you collapse middle-class and low-class lifestyle into the same thing.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#42

Post by ProfessorLayton » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 10:30 PM UTC

eggsmediumrare wrote: post #30

rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re begging the question. Is having your own 1BR apartment a “basic standard of living”? When did we decide that? Is that a goal other developed countries have set and achieved? Those are the pertinent questions, not what ideas “we like.” According to the study, that standard would require a $30-40 minimum wage in places like New York. Is that something any country has done?

Why wouldn't we want that? Isn't the point of progress to improve life for everyone?

This is completely subjective. In many countries it's very common to have multiple generations living under one roof all supporting each other.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#43

Post by II2II » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 10:31 PM UTC

eikenberry wrote: post #12

falcolas wrote: post #5

There's an important caveat, before everyone jumps on the title by itself: > The report, released Tuesday, defines “affordable” as spending no more than 30% of monthly income on rent, in line with what most budgeting experts recommend. The second caveat is this is rent for a 2 bedroom apartment; though they do say that it's also ~95% of 1 bedroom apartments. No comment is made on studio apartments or having roommates…

> No comment is made on studio apartments or having roommates. To me this is the most telling part. When you are poor you need to have one or more roommates to afford housing and this is not new. What is wrong with roommates? I do think the US could use more small/studio apartment options for those who have a bit more money and prefer to live alone. I lived in a small studio once and enjoyed it, though I usually had…

One issue with roommates is that rental laws are rarely designed to accommodate for that situation. For example, if one person is unwilling or unable to pay the rent the other(s) have to make up the difference with no real recourse. If they don't, well, the landlord does have recourse (even if it is heavily regulated and burdensome). This is a particular problem for older people or people with limited social connections since the options are more limited. The problem can be further aggravated if landlords have the right to veto the arrangement.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#44

Post by yeahAL09 » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 10:31 PM UTC

eggsmediumrare wrote: post #30

rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re begging the question. Is having your own 1BR apartment a “basic standard of living”? When did we decide that? Is that a goal other developed countries have set and achieved? Those are the pertinent questions, not what ideas “we like.” According to the study, that standard would require a $30-40 minimum wage in places like New York. Is that something any country has done?

Why wouldn't we want that? Isn't the point of progress to improve life for everyone?

rayiner is an American lawyer with heavy bias to tradition in that context.

If America changes too much, all that legal education goes to waste. It’s biologically motivated self selection.

“Keep the laws and norms from changing, or my influence!”

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#45

Post by joshuaheard » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 10:32 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #5

There's an important caveat, before everyone jumps on the title by itself: > The report, released Tuesday, defines “affordable” as spending no more than 30% of monthly income on rent, in line with what most budgeting experts recommend. The second caveat is this is rent for a 2 bedroom apartment; though they do say that it's also ~95% of 1 bedroom apartments. No comment is made on studio apartments or having roommates…

I was going to say this. When I was working minimum wage, I had small studios or roommates. I have never rented a 2 bedroom apartment by myself, and only once did I rent a proper 1 bedroom by myself. It wasn't until I got married that I could afford a house.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#46

Post by prepend » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

bonestormii_ wrote: post #36

rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

Having worked a lot in a rental market with a very active housing subsidy program, I agree that the administration of such programs is an actual nightmare, but you really are missing the point I think. Start with the assumption that people need to be able to afford a place to live, and that a full time job should be able to achieve that. Do you agree? Now, if we both agree that a housing subsidy program is an adminis…

> Start with the assumption that people need to be able to afford a place to live, and that a full time job should be able to achieve that. Do you agree?

For me, it’s the definition of a minimum place to live. When I was young, I had roommates. I don’t think every working person should be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment.

There are multi family dwellings, studios, boarding rooms, etc. If I’m by myself and making minimum wage then I think it’s ok to not be able to get my own one to two bedroom in the city of my choosing. I’m ok with having to live in the burbs and train or drive in. It sucks, but there’s no reason why minimum wage is a permanent condition.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#47

Post by vangelis » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

apsec112 wrote: post #2

SlateStarCodex on why this is deceptive: https://web.archive.org/web/20200303232829/https://slatestar...

You get better results if you redefine "unaffordable". Also, the report did specify that 1BRs were also not affordable in 95% of counties going this metric. That's not to say some metrics aren't representative, rent in rural areas and cities in the same states may vary widely. They have it down by county in this report.

"Out of Reach is consistent with federal housing policy in the assumption that no more than 30% of a household’s gross income should be consumed by gross housing costs. Spending more than 30% of income on housing is considered “unaffordable."[1]

[1] https://reports.nlihc.org/sites/default/files/oor/OOR_BOOK_2...

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#48

Post by rayiner » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

vharuck wrote: post #39

rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

>Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? There's a very good chance there are people whose quality of life would be drastically diminished if they had to share an apartment. Off the top of my head, those with embarrassing or inconvenient medical issues, single parents, people who always feel some level of stress around other people (there are a…

Doesn’t it make sense to set the floors based on the typical person, and accommodate other people in personalized ways? For example, the vast majority of low wage workers are not parents. If we want to set a floor for parents, we can have housing subsidies for families with children. Isn’t that better and more efficient?

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#49

Post by rayiner » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 10:38 PM UTC

bonestormii_ wrote: post #36

rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

Having worked a lot in a rental market with a very active housing subsidy program, I agree that the administration of such programs is an actual nightmare, but you really are missing the point I think. Start with the assumption that people need to be able to afford a place to live, and that a full time job should be able to achieve that. Do you agree? Now, if we both agree that a housing subsidy program is an adminis…

Countries and places with the most extensive housing regulation have some of the most unaffordable housing. Stockholm’s housing market, for example, is a basket case.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#50

Post by bonestormii_ » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 10:39 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #46

bonestormii_ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked a lot in a rental market with a very active housing subsidy program, I agree that the administration of such programs is an actual nightmare, but you really are missing the point I think. Start with the assumption that people need to be able to afford a place to live, and that a full time job should be able to achieve that. Do you agree? Now, if we both agree that a housing subsidy program is an adminis…

> Start with the assumption that people need to be able to afford a place to live, and that a full time job should be able to achieve that. Do you agree? For me, it’s the definition of a minimum place to live. When I was young, I had roommates. I don’t think every working person should be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment. There are multi family dwellings, studios, boarding rooms, etc. If I’m by myself and making…

> When I was young, I had roommates. I don’t think every working person should be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment.

Not everyone working minimum wage is doing it "when they were young." Do you really think it's a good objective for a 55 year old cook for a non-profit organization to be living with room mates? Would you want that?

The solution is there if you are willing to reduce the wealth generated by investment properties for an already much wealthier investment class. How do you justify your priorities ethically?