Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress • Hacker News Board

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#291

Post by starpilot » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

seesawtron wrote: post #106

It reminds me of what Aldous Huxley wrote (about people in distress): “The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. "Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does." They are…

The social critic and mathematician Ted Kaczynski said, "The concept of 'mental health' in our society is defined largely by the extent to which an individual behaves in accord with the needs of the system and does so without showing signs of stress ... Instead of removing the conditions that make people depressed, modern society gives them antidepressant drugs. In effect, antidepressants are a means of modifying an individual’s internal state in such a way as to enable him to tolerate social conditions that he would otherwise find intolerable ... Without the entertainment industry the system probably would not have been able to get away with putting as much stress-producing pressure on us as it does."

The entire concept of "boredom" to him is a state of unease brought on by the modern working lifestyle. "Depression" is really a healthy, normal response to horrible conditions that we've adjusted to, like a fish that doesn't realize he's surrounded by water.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#292

Post by Aperocky » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:54 PM UTC

dukha wrote: post #56

I've always been depressive and pessimistic person as far as I can remember. I've been looking at other people only to see how happy they are and how content they with their life. They feel motivated, want something from life and in generally think that being alive is alright, which I just couldn't internalize no matter how hard I tried. Essentially, I've come to the conclusion that there _must_ be something wrong wi…

I have always been a happy and optimistic person.

But I do very often wonder if and what is the objective purpose of life, and having thought of it for a long time, I came to the conclusion that there are no such objective purpose.

The goal of life is entirely subjective, while the achievement/advancement of the goal is grounded in logic and hard work, the goal itself is not.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#293

Post by pessimizer » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:56 PM UTC

danans wrote: post #278

PaulHoule wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If tigers were not somewhat dangerous it wouldn't be much harder than breeding housecats, except they are larger and eat more. Every so often they catch somebody breeding tigers in shockingly small cages. How can society not be "a cage" in some respects? How about the arguments from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_and_Its_Disconten...

> How can society not be "a cage" in some respects? Calling it a cage is reductio ad absurdum. The presence of social norms does not invalidate the agency of humans or groups of humans in the way a cage does. Characterizing it as a cage is a strawman, often used by those who would simply like to destroy it and erect a "cage" of their own preference.

> The presence of social norms does not invalidate the agency of humans or groups of humans in the way a cage does.

I'm not sure how you can say this with such confidence. Surely it depends on what the social norms are and how they are enforced (which could be with a literal cage.)

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#294

Post by danans » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

jmole wrote: post #219

danans wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you stick a tiger in a small cage it doesn’t breed — that is an objective observation rather than a moral critique. Huxleys argument is of the same nature — that society is becoming a cage to natural impulse and instinct. That's a false analogy because it uses things that aren't related to each other in the same way. The society=>cage analogy isn't an objective observation, it is your opinion, and also an essent…

the analogy is "an environmental condition that significantly modifies 'natural' behavior". The only essentialist argument is that there was a 'natural' to begin with, which in this case ought to be obvious. Our 'natural' environment, i.e. the environment in which we evolved to prosper, is far different in which the environment that we live today. If you fail to see the analogy, you are either being overly reductive…

What is overly reductive is reducing the entirety of the evolution of human society up to the current state to the metaphor of a cage, a metaphor chosen for the purpose of inducing fear and suspicion of others with whom you share society.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#295

Post by danans » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:04 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #293

danans wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can society not be "a cage" in some respects? Calling it a cage is reductio ad absurdum. The presence of social norms does not invalidate the agency of humans or groups of humans in the way a cage does. Characterizing it as a cage is a strawman, often used by those who would simply like to destroy it and erect a "cage" of their own preference.

> The presence of social norms does not invalidate the agency of humans or groups of humans in the way a cage does. I'm not sure how you can say this with such confidence. Surely it depends on what the social norms are and how they are enforced (which could be with a literal cage.)

That's exactly my point. Essentializing about society being a cage that prevents people from being fully human removes all nuance as to which social norms are pro-social and which are anti-social, which norms are suffocating, and which norms actually provide the freedom from fear that people need in order to exist without constant anxiety. It treats all of them the same - as shackles on the "freedom" necessary to be a "full human".

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#296

Post by sjtindell » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:05 PM UTC

starpilot wrote: post #291

seesawtron wrote: post #106

It reminds me of what Aldous Huxley wrote (about people in distress): “The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. "Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does." They are…

The social critic and mathematician Ted Kaczynski said, "The concept of 'mental health' in our society is defined largely by the extent to which an individual behaves in accord with the needs of the system and does so without showing signs of stress ... Instead of removing the conditions that make people depressed, modern society gives them antidepressant drugs. In effect, antidepressants are a means of modifying an…

I agree strongly with this view. People often refer to the lessons we learned putting rats in cages. Cages that contain the things rats really need make them happy. Cages that don’t, make them unhappy. It’s not the rats mentality that needs to change, the cage needs to change or they need a new cage entirely.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#297

Post by mschuster91 » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:07 PM UTC

dpweb wrote: post #227

seesawtron wrote: post #106

It reminds me of what Aldous Huxley wrote (about people in distress): “The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. "Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does." They are…

Also, what is the appropriate threshold where we call it mental illness. The article, Jenna's boyfriend cheated. She's seriously depressed. That ain't illness, it's normal. That doctor is a quack. I feel part of the problem is the expectation that humans are supposed to be happy. Happy is just a state of mind, not necessarily our default state. Depression and mental pain have their uses. They alert us, something is w…

> Also, what is the appropriate threshold where we call it mental illness. The article, Jenna's boyfriend cheated. She's seriously depressed. That ain't illness, it's normal. That doctor is a quack.

You'd be surprised how many drug and gambling abuse spirals start with people being left by their s/o's. Back when I worked in bars, everyone with a serious drinking and/or gambling issue either had a relationship falling apart or already way beyond repair.

The difference between previous times and now is that people are actually taking care about their wellbeing (partially due to feminism actively taking down the toxic masculinity "ideal" of men that don't even go to doctors when they've broken a bone, much less for mental health), and that common "self therapy" strategies ranging from alcoholism over hard drug abuse to domestic violence are not as accepted in culture as they have been before.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#298

Post by 0xcde4c3db » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:08 PM UTC

spaetzleesser wrote: post #257

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #28

Many depressed people are very resistant to accepting treatment. In a perfect world, people would have no hangups about scheduling an appointment with a therapist and/or trialing antidepressant medication as an adjunct to their recovery. However, in the real world many people are resistant to the idea of therapy and/or medication as it feels like admitting defeat. Or perhaps they've read cherry-picked horror stories…

When I had serious depression a while ago trying to find treatment was a seriously depressing experience. I went through several therapists which I didn’t click with and made me just feel worse. When you are already down it‘s very hard to do these attempts because they require a lot of effort and building of trust Every disappointment takes you down even further then . I know people who have had great success with tr…

I've had a similar experience. I think one of the biggest problems with the current approach to mental illness is that practitioners (irrespective of modality) act like unsuccessful treatments are harmless. They're not; they can very credibly reinforce a patient's belief that treatment can't help them. It's easy to say "you just haven't found the right treatment yet, keep trying", but that argument rings pretty hollow after the fifth failure or so.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#299

Post by seesawtron » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:17 PM UTC

starpilot wrote: post #291

seesawtron wrote: post #106

It reminds me of what Aldous Huxley wrote (about people in distress): “The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. "Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does." They are…

The social critic and mathematician Ted Kaczynski said, "The concept of 'mental health' in our society is defined largely by the extent to which an individual behaves in accord with the needs of the system and does so without showing signs of stress ... Instead of removing the conditions that make people depressed, modern society gives them antidepressant drugs. In effect, antidepressants are a means of modifying an…

I like that you reference him solely as social critic and mathematician. I would recommend one should read his manifesto [0] to form their own opinion. Additionally you might also enjoy the Adam Curtis's documentary series [1].

[0] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Unabomber-Manifest...

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnPmg0R1M04

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#300

Post by mrkurt » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:19 PM UTC

yomly wrote: post #273

razakel wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some more food for thought - occasionally doctors will privately admit that many of their patients aren't really depressed, they're in fact suffering from "shit life syndrome" - in other words, their mood is the normal and natural response to the circumstances they are in. Here's an FT article about Blackpool, a deprived seaside town in the north of England. It has the highest unemployment rate, some of the lowest li…

Anecdotally a doctor friend confirmed this same observation to me after doing a psychiatry rotation - they suggested that most people with depression were just sad but wanted a magic pill to cure the unpleasant emotion.

Depression isn't "sad".

Depression _can_ be a function of the environment, but it's still not "sad". Sad is a healthy, appropriate emotion. Depression is a numbness that makes it difficult to even feel sadness.