Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress • Hacker News Board

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#81

Post by numpad0 » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #62

css wrote: post #6

> to defeat this othering and reduce stigma, clinical practice needs to move away from biogenetic causal language This is a pretty big assertion that the piece casually drops without backing. The reasoning as to why "chemical imbalance" is a bad descriptor is apparent* from the study [0] the author cites, but there is nothing that backs up this statement, which seems to be the crux of the whole piece. *Even the study…

'Chemical imbalance' as a causal explanation seems to me almost useless because every severe change in behaviour pretty much by definition corresponds to change in the brain. How else is it supposed to be manifest? Is there supposed to be drastic change in psychology without change in the brain? There can be a company pouring lead into a river, psychological hazard during a civil war, and it will always manifest in t…

“It’s not a bug, it’s electronic misplacement”

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#82

Post by 488643689 » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #73

calibas wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many neurological disorders are at least linked to gut bacteria, including autism and schizophrenia. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/05/gut-bacteria-may-con... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/balanced/201903/schi...

Initially I suspected carbon monoxide poisoning, because it correlated to when I’d come home. The symptoms were that bad. Turns out it was the dinner I was cooking every night for the family, I’d sit down to relax and eat and just a few minutes after eating asparagus feel completely bonkers. I went to the emergency room, they gave me a few Xanax; then the GP who wanted to prescribe me Lexapro and referred me to a Gas…

So what's in asparagus to cause this?

Sounds like you have some enzyme defect. Do you know any specifics?

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#83

Post by opportune » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

asveikau wrote: post #32

nsl73 wrote: post #11

I find the chemical imbalance metaphor for mental illness the opposite of empowering and an easy well to sell pharmaceuticals. There is some truth to the metaphor, but I wonder if it’s doing more harm than good.

If you have been close to a psychotic person who refuses to take antipsychotic medication (a common enough problem that I have faced with multiple people), the "just trying to sell drugs" story gets old very fast. A lot of people really do need the drugs in order to stop harming themselves. I think this article does a disservice by suggesting that people on such drugs are trying to get over a minor breakup. And actua…

There’s a difference between antipsychotic medication and medication like SSRIs or anxiety medication. Not only in effects/potentially in necessity, but antipsychotic medication can be very dysphoric and sedating, whereas some people experience SSRIs positively and others negatively, and where anxiety meds are generally well liked (to the point of dependence becoming a real risk). Also whereas antipsychotics and anti anxiolytics are generally quite effective at treating their specific purpose, SSRIs are relatively ineffective, and anti anxiolytics are often not considered long term solutions (at least to GAD) in part because of the tolerance/dependence/addiction effects.

So I don’t think it makes sense to paint all psychiatric medicine with the same brush

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#84

Post by LibertyBeta » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 3:01 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #13

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

This plays nicely into the idea that human consciousness is really just our brain meats way of resolving the internal understanding of the world with the outside understanding of the world.

Mental health, and any issues you have with it, are a hitch in that system. But to assume that you can fix is by only affecting one part(the internal understanding of the world) seems flawed for me. Same can be said, like in the article, of only fixing the outside understanding of the world (chemical changes).

So let me add my voice to your message, don't lose hope! We are a ball of walnuty textured jelly that tracks changes between the inside view of the world with the outside input of the world using lightning and chemicals. Its complex, hard, and the fault surface is huge.

Keep going, try new solutions, find someone one who helps you build the solution for you. But please, _try_.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#85

Post by partyboat1586 » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 3:02 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #46

partyboat1586 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brains are not machines like your phone is a machine or your car is a machine. They are complex systems and the result of an emergent process rather than designed systems with discrete components. The analogy that brains are like machines is harmful because it makes it sound like there is some operating manual and simple cause effect relationships that are known. Our knowledge of the brain is in fact very little. It'…

> The analogy that brains are like machines is harmful because it makes it sound like there is some operating manual and simple cause effect relationships that are known. Why? We have complex machines and systems as well, where nobody would claim that there are only simple cause effect relationships and you only need a two-page owner's manual. Drugs work pretty reliably. While you can't predict what exactly is going…

I'm not saying we can't know or that our understanding won't improve. I'm saying right now we pretend to know more than we do. LSD has a reliable effect in the short term, just like torching a plot of land in the Amazon has a reliable effect in the short term. It's the long term effects that are subject to the rules of complex systems and not machines.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#86

Post by opportune » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 3:03 PM UTC

ixtli wrote: post #37

Not to reduce a complex topic to an aphorism but: if the world is configured in a way thats antagonistic towards you, a negative response is understandable. A lot of this stuff fits neatly into a tradition of blaming people for their conditions that, by and large, they have little control over. Oh, another aphorism that's always stuck with me is "the difference between 'crazy' and 'eccentric' is a million dollars."

I feel this is particularly apt as depression has grown considerably over the past few decades. Could be the result of destigmatization, or could be the result of society worsening in some way. If you have a poor social life and feel like an underachiever (which describes increasingly more people, IME) it’s no surprise to me that you would experience depression

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#87

Post by jquery » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 3:04 PM UTC

throwaway_kufu wrote: post #74

sillysaurusx wrote: post #13

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

> When you have a broken leg, everyone notices and can relate; when you have a broken mind, no one can see it, and so no one can feel sympathy, let alone empathy. This hits home and almost moved me to tears. I went through a trauma about 3 years ago, I was Kidnapped/abducted from a gas station at gun point and was forced to drive my attacker for nearly 30 minutes at gun point under threat of death before opening the…

I’m so sorry to hear that. Keep fighting the good fight. Don’t give up. You survived for a reason. You have a purpose. Only you can figure out what that purpose is.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#88

Post by _h7ky » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 3:05 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #13

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

>Most people keep this sort of thing quiet, and I think silence is part of the problem.

For the sake of this, I post about it online on occasion when the topic comes up -- an SNRI, Effexor XR, was life-changing for me, too. I suffered from crippling anxiety; my therapist diagnosed me with generalised anxiety, social anxiety, and major depressive disorders. Cognitive-behavioural therapy helped me live me life instead of letting it be controlled by these issues, but the issues were still there, and quite intense. There were some nights it just totally overwhelmed me. On Effexor XR, that never happens. Anxiety and depression are not only no longer constantly looming over me, but they are completely gone.

However, the first thing I tried was citalopram, an SSRI. It mostly got rid of them too, but I never felt quite like 'myself'. I felt like a zombie and like a bit of my soul had been taken out. Plus it wasn't entirely effective like Effexor.

(For what it's worth -- diet, exercise, and so on were tried too. No benefit to my mental health. I've also given more time than they're worth to various supplements that people report as helping their own issues.)

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#89

Post by xivzgrev » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 3:05 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #13

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

I’m glad you got help. Sometimes the only thing keeping me going is that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and there is something else to try. Medication also helped to prevent me from going too low

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#90

Post by koheripbal » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #62

css wrote: post #6

> to defeat this othering and reduce stigma, clinical practice needs to move away from biogenetic causal language This is a pretty big assertion that the piece casually drops without backing. The reasoning as to why "chemical imbalance" is a bad descriptor is apparent* from the study [0] the author cites, but there is nothing that backs up this statement, which seems to be the crux of the whole piece. *Even the study…

'Chemical imbalance' as a causal explanation seems to me almost useless because every severe change in behaviour pretty much by definition corresponds to change in the brain. How else is it supposed to be manifest? Is there supposed to be drastic change in psychology without change in the brain? There can be a company pouring lead into a river, psychological hazard during a civil war, and it will always manifest in t…

"People in distress" is even more useless. "in distress" could mean anything from having fallen down the stairs, to running out of gas on the highway.

I don't mind changing language, as long as we're become more precise, not less.

If "chemical imbalance" is bad, suggest something better.

I think a bigger problem is that people are fixated on word definitions and offending others instead of solving problems.