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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

bbc.com

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Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#421

Post by thetinguy »

yashap wrote: post #270

Standard Ireland stuff. They want to bring jobs to Ireland, so they create international corporate tax loopholes. My understanding is these loopholes mostly allow US tech companies to make large real profits in Europe, have them attribute to an Irish office, but then bullshit the profits away by claiming things like paying licensing fees to themselves, for their own tech, paid to a subsidiary in an even sketchier tax…

Apple has had an office in Cork since the 80s and employs thousands of people to work in those offices.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#422

Post by roamerz »

xrd wrote: post #419
seppel wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't the state provide roads for Amazon Amazon is already paying for using the roads, since they are by large toll-roads.

I haven't done the math on that kind of infrastructure project. I would be very curious (and open minded) about seeing an analysis of how payment for roads plays out, especially with toll roads. In the Portland, OR area (where I live) there are zero toll roads. Maybe that's why I am biased to feeling like state funding these projects is necessary. If Amazon (and anyone else that uses them) were paying for them, perha…

The roads in Oregon are paid by a fuel and or license tax. Thus everyone that uses them weather it be commercial or personal pays for them not the state. When you consider the recently failed joint OR-Wa bridge project you get to see what happens when state bureaucracy is in control.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#423

Post by solstice »

fidelramos wrote: post #390
filoeleven wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those companies only exist at this enormous scale because of the societies (I.e. nation-states) that grew them. They rely on literal tons of state infrastructure and decades-worth of long-term state programs/planning that foster their growth, and that of the customers who buy their stuff.

No, huge companies exists because large accumulations of capital put to productive uses allow for better economies of scale, producing better and cheaper services and products, which the public benefits from. Our overgrown states don't foster innovation and wealth, but hinder it.

To address only a tiny sliver of that massively one-sided view of yours: At least in many European countries, publicly-funded universities train the scientific, engineering and managerial talent these corporations need.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#424

Post by istjohn »

fidelramos wrote: post #390
filoeleven wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those companies only exist at this enormous scale because of the societies (I.e. nation-states) that grew them. They rely on literal tons of state infrastructure and decades-worth of long-term state programs/planning that foster their growth, and that of the customers who buy their stuff.

No, huge companies exists because large accumulations of capital put to productive uses allow for better economies of scale, producing better and cheaper services and products, which the public benefits from. Our overgrown states don't foster innovation and wealth, but hinder it.

Yes, this is true. Thus Somalia's ascendant tech scene. No pesky state to get in the way of innovation.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#425

Post by tialaramex »

raphaelj wrote: post #386
narag wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take a closer look at tax havens, you'll find that most of them are UK/US colonies, ex-colonies or de facto colonies.

You're totally right. Yet half the world are ex UK colonies so ...

The reason it matters, and why the US and UK are complicit (as are Ireland and several other European nations) is that as someone hiding money you need the Rule of Law. Both countries are famous for the Rule of Law, at least in respect of the very wealthy.

Imagine a hypothetical country the Amazing Fiefdom of Jim or AFJ for short. AFJ seems like a good tax haven at first glance, they have 0% tax on offshore revenues, companies can be set up there for a modest fee of $100, you don't need to be a citizen or ever visit, they don't ask you to file much paperwork and they reject all law enforcement paperwork queries for the little paperwork they do have.

But alas, the ruler of the fiefdom, Jim, just sometimes takes stuff he wants. A billionaire who had hidden $400M and a big stake in Amazon via a company in AFJ one day discovers the company was now mysteriously owned by Jim, no way to dispute it!

If that happens with some tiny island that used to be a British colony you can get it unwound, you'll need to pay some expensive lawyers in London to make that happen so it's not an option for the average person on the high street, but if you've got this sort of "need a tax haven" money you can afford those lawyers and get Jim dragged over the coals until he agrees to give back your stuff.

This faith in the rule of law is why Russians hide money in England not in Russia. If you hide stolen money in Russia, and one day Putin wants the money, he just takes it and if anybody complains maybe they "commit suicide" by hurling themselves off a tall building entirely unassisted...

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#426

Post by AnthonyMouse »

simongr3dal wrote: post #420
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies should have never been taxed based on a virtual, and fundamentally nonsensical, figure as the location of their headquarters. They should be taxed based on substantial things, like (the location of) capital, labour and sales. This is fundamentally the right answer, but don't underestimate the political difficulty in getting there. Taxing "profits" in the location of the headquarters was always a seduction…

How can the tax ever be worse than a sale? Even if the tax is 100% on the profits from a sale it would still contribute to economies of scale at the production end of things thereby subsidizing all other units in countries with more favourable tax rates and increasing the profits in those countries.

> How can the tax ever be worse than a sale?

For one thing, sales taxes are on revenues rather than profits (because the entire price is profit to somebody, and otherwise you're giving incentive to corporate shell games again), and that means the tax could exceed the profit to the entity making the decision.

Also, any non-zero profits aren't necessarily better than the alternative, because the alternative is to deploy the same capital somewhere else. Your factory is producing as many widgets as it can for a unit cost of $5, France was paying $10, now with tax you're only seeing $7.50 of that, but people in Oregon (no sales tax) would pay $9.75 so it's now more profitable to sell to them instead. Or you could stop making widgets entirely and turn your factory into condos if that's now more profitable. For that to make sense the profit from widgets doesn't have to be zero, only less than what you can get from doing something else.

Meanwhile if the customer in France still wants the widget, they can get it, but they've got to pay enough so that the after-tax price is still ~$10. So in that case the company keeps making widgets and selling them to France but it's the customer eating the tax.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#427

Post by dantheman »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #350
dantheman wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic growth and technical innovation go hand in hand. As the economy grows the pie gets bigger, as long as everyones absolute amount grows thats good - most people thing that some are shrinking which is not the case. Right now, some peoples are growing at faster rate.

Firstly, one can have innovation with no economic growth and vice-versa, the two phenomena are distinct and separate. Much of econonic growth is about organisatuonal aspect's of society, rather than inventing new technology. Technology depebds on world of atoms, ans discoveries do not come on demand, nor are they particularly well rewarded. Einstein did not die a billionaire. Neither did most great scientists. Lastly…

Einstein didn't develop technology, he was a scientist. Science != Technology, but Science and Technology and are linked. Often times technology precedes the science, and then the science is developed and advances the technology.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#428

Post by dantheman »

anoncake wrote: post #389
dantheman wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic growth and technical innovation go hand in hand. As the economy grows the pie gets bigger, as long as everyones absolute amount grows thats good - most people thing that some are shrinking which is not the case. Right now, some peoples are growing at faster rate.

It is not. People judge their own wealth relative to that of others. Thus reducing inequality is a lot more important than increasing total wealth.

I completely disagree - increasing total wealth allows new things and is more important than how people judge their wealth relative to others.

People are not equal in many ways - I don't see why we always focus on wealth. What about influence, what about looks, what about education, what about family life quality, etc...

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#429

Post by valuearb »

anonymousDan wrote: post #360
yashap wrote: post #270

Standard Ireland stuff. They want to bring jobs to Ireland, so they create international corporate tax loopholes. My understanding is these loopholes mostly allow US tech companies to make large real profits in Europe, have them attribute to an Irish office, but then bullshit the profits away by claiming things like paying licensing fees to themselves, for their own tech, paid to a subsidiary in an even sketchier tax…

This is such bullshit. The root cause of this is the US tax system, and the US decision to allow corporations to defer taxation on profits made abroad, with the aim of subsequently applying political pressure for a tax amnesty. The US could unilaterally fix this problem tomorrow if it wanted. Sort your own house out first.

It would’ve crazy to “fix” that problem. It would be making US corporations the highest tax corporations in the world and give foreign companies like Samsung a huge advantage over auS competitors.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#430

Post by valuearb »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #330
negrit wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure Apple has an entity in Europe therefor the money this entity makes in Europe should be taxed in Europe.

Is it broken up that way? Do the US sales of Apple get taxed in the US, and European sales of Apple get taxed in Europe?

Apples foreign sales and profits are taxed in every country they sell in.

- then the remaining profits are taxed again by the US government when Apple repatriates them to the US.

- Then the remainder are taxed again by the state Apple reports them in.

- Then they are taxed again by the federal government when Apple shareholders receive the remainder as dividends.

- Then they are taxed once more by the Shareholders state, finally allowing the shareholder to spend (or reinvest) what remains.

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