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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

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Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#241

Post by nfsdjkghewyuh »

m12k wrote: post #194
joejerryronnie wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The devil is in the details though. I’m sure a US capitalist and a French government bureaucrat have very different ideas as to what constitutes “enough money”.

If we fixed profit shifting, then the French bureaucrat could set a tax rate, and the US capitalist would be free to choose whether they wanted their company to do business in France, and thus the market would eventually find some equilibrium for us. Right now it doesn't matter what the French corporate tax rate is, because multinationals don't have to pay it.

Economic is not my area of expertise, so I don't think I'm understanding. Are you talking about (1) something like a sales tax, where all companies that sell to, in this example, French consumers have to pay a tax based on those sales, (2) only if they have a corporate presence in France do they pay some portion of the profits made in France, or (3) something completely different and I'm 100% lost.

If it's (2) wouldn't that just incentivize businesses to sell to France but not employ French people, and if it's (1) wouldn't corporations just offload the cost of that tax onto consumers so that good are just more expensive in France?

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#242

Post by speleding »

majidazimi wrote: post #127
balfirevic wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, really? 20000 EUR per square meter, for small apartment in Munich? That's... more than I expected.

Even if it's half cheaper, a family house of 80-100m^2 costs beyond 600K which is way beyond affordability range of a couple both working as software engineers let alone people with non-tech jobs.

With mortgages in the 1.5-2% range, a 600K house would cost you €750 - €1000 a month in mortgage payments, and that's not even taking into account tax benefits you may get. That's an absolute steal compared to what you would pay in rent in a place like Amsterdam or London.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#243

Post by arrrg »

csunbird wrote: post #172
arrrg wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The range starts at six percent (assuming full-time employment and minimum wage, it can drop lower if you are working part-time). It’s at 15 percent for people earning the median wage (€3,300), meaning half of all Germans pay 15 percent or less of their salary in income tax. Your range if very far removed from reality. (It is true, though, that for very high incomes 35 percent aren’t the ceiling, that’s somewhere in…

Well, adding mandatory payments/taxes such as, social security, health insurance (%7.45 + %7.45 paid by employer), unemployment insurance and solidarity tax, pushes it to 20 percent - 35 percent area, based on your tax class. I am not even talking about the church tax if you are religious. In my opinion, I do not see any difference between income tax and the mandatory taxes.

Mandatory insurance is mandatory insurance, not tax. To claim otherwise is manipulative.

I already included the Soli in my calculations and church tax is strictly optional.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#244

Post by simonh »

blibble wrote: post #130
kalleboo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They pay VAT on the value they add between what they buy and what they sell. Hence, Value-Added Tax.

no they don't, they collect it, but the consumer pays it this is the entire principle behind VAT

Arguably the customer pays all of a companies taxes, after all that’s where the revenue comes from. The bottom line is those taxes all come from the activities of the company.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#245

Post by talideon »

ransom1538 wrote: post #181
m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

How to setup a tax haven, in just a few steps!: 1) Create a successful company. 2) Create a new company in Ireland [$400 office and a phone]. 3) Transfer all revenue creating items to Ireland company - leave all cost centers in your host country [US, Germany, etc]. 4) Write on your blogs how you back social justice!

Well, no. That's not how it works.

That stuff only remotely works with US companies because its tax regime wasn't a territorial one. As of a few years ago, the US finally transitioned to a quasi-territorial tax regime, which plugged some of the holes, but not all of them.

And you don't find German (or Japanese, Australian, &c.) multinationals doing this kind of thing because they have _proper_ territorial tax regimes. The US does not, and this kind of thing will continue to be a problem until the US finally does do what the rest of the world does regarding taxation.

And it would be nice if they did the same regarding personal taxation.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#246

Post by lucb1e »

andrewstuart wrote: post #33

Here's what big tech companies don't pay their fair share of: * defence * education * infrastructure * health * etc But our political systems are so corrupt there's nothing can be done about it because they just line the pockets of the political parties who in turn make sure they never have to pay their fair share.

Why list of government spending destinations? I don't think it's unclear what tax money goes to.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#247

Post by gridlockd »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #166
Isn0gud wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't really make sense to buy at this price point though. Looks like one can rent an apartment of that size for 1200 EUR a month in Munich.

Yes, but renting doesn't give you that sense of security when you are thinking of having kids versus owning your own place. When you're renting the thought of the landlord kicking you out if the rental market should suddenly shift is a huge axe to child planning for most couples. Owning you own place offers a more secure feeling and belonging to a community.

This is pure make-belief. You should buy if a purchase is cheaper than renting. Guess what, it never is when interest rates are at zero.

Rent is determined by what people with jobs can pay, property prices are determined by what international investors with deep pockets and easy credit can pay. Which one are you? If you are the former, you will be paying down a mortgage that you can barely afford. You will be a slave to the property. What if you lose the ability to pay? How secure is your paycheck really?

Keep your cash, and invest it somewhere else. You can find a new place to rent. You can leave if your community turns to shit.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#248

Post by mulmen »

logicchains wrote: post #88
m12k wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US experienced massive growth in the 50s and 60s while having very high tax rates. The US, until recently had a higher corporate tax rate than many European country - the latest US tax cuts brought it down to the same 21% that my native Denmark has. I'm sorry, but this 'deregulation and low taxes will fix everything' myth has been so thoroughly debunked by now that I'm sad to see it rearing its ugly head in an ot…

>The US experienced massive growth in the 50s and 60s while having very high tax rates. The effective rate actually paid by the top 1% was around 42%, which is not much higher than now: https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/ . . The US had also emerged as pretty much the only unbombed industrial country after a global war, giving it a significant advantage. >so thoroughly debunked by now Debunked…

Right, nobody actually paid 60%. They used their money to build factories and create jobs instead. Which drove growth. Now they can just keep the money.

The actual taxes paid aren't as important as the incentives they create.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#249

Post by jdsully »

elindbe2 wrote: post #217
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Germany is mostly old money, inherited for generations, that is very risk adverse so instead of investing it in new SW companies or buying stocks, they park it in real estate in desirable areas and prop up this bubble since it's a sure bet for a return on investment. That's why they call it Beton Gold ("concrete gold").

That doesn't explain the lack of new building though. Is it NIMBYism?

Munich has very strict limits on vertical height so that cathedral spires aren't drowned out by the buildings. On the edge of the city you do see some taller office buildings but not in the core, and certainly not to the extent you would expect in a major city.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#250

Post by NegativeLatency »

justicezyx wrote: post #232
fluffy87 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason behind the lack of EU successful startups is that they can’t attract talent because they can’t pay employees in stock options which means that when one happens to succeed only few people get rich, instead of what happens in the US were most employees get rich and some of them go on to create beer startups. There is no such cycle in Europe, and it’s all because the lack of stock options. Without them,…

> in the US were most employees get rich Really? I thought most startup get a successful exit, result into their employees being modestly compensated, probably on par with the counterparts in mega corps.

Enough get enough money to perpetuate the myth of "everyone" getting rich in my experience.
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