Live data from Hacker News

Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

bbc.com

181–190 of 485 posts

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#181
post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

How to setup a tax haven, in just a few steps!:

1) Create a successful company.

2) Create a new company in Ireland [$400 office and a phone].

3) Transfer all revenue creating items to Ireland company - leave all cost centers in your host country [US, Germany, etc].

4) Write on your blogs how you back social justice!

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#182
post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

Apple has been in Ireland since the 1980's. A large fraction of an entire city (Cork) depend on it. It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more than $14bn to the community, and country, in that time. And it's not a figure-head office either, it has assembly lines. Countries aren't all identical. Ireland needs to be allowed tune its economic policies based on what it has to offer. It doesn't have the…

> It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more than $14bn to the community, and country

Even assuming that's the case (sounds far fetched to me), would that mean they now wouldn't have to pay a fair tax rate?

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has been in Ireland since the 1980's. A large fraction of an entire city (Cork) depend on it. It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more than $14bn to the community, and country, in that time. And it's not a figure-head office either, it has assembly lines. Countries aren't all identical. Ireland needs to be allowed tune its economic policies based on what it has to offer. It doesn't have the…

> It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more than $14bn to the community, and country Even assuming that's the case (sounds far fetched to me), would that mean they now wouldn't have to pay a fair tax rate?

>pay a fair tax rate?

They would, but you have to define "fair" first.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#185
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps lowering taxes is the answer. Why pay sky-high French taxes when you could pay lower taxes in Ireland?

Unless we want international trade to be a one-way process that slowly drains the middle class dry, and triggers the next recession when demand drops to zero, then it is probably better to make sure that whenever a company makes money by selling to consumers, enough money is re-circulated back into that country to maintain the purchasing power of those consumers. (That seems to be a core part of China's strategy, pro…

The devil is in the details though. I’m sure a US capitalist and a French government bureaucrat have very different ideas as to what constitutes “enough money”.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#186

EU needs to solve this problem at its roots and put pressure on tax Haven states directly. If that necessitates a reform that gives expanded authority to EU so be it.

I'm not confident that the EU will address this situation, much less solve it. The government in Brussels does not want to be known for challenging domestic tax policy that has existed for years, especially in a post-Brexit era. I could be wrong, and maybe the EU will put pressure on small tax havens in order to give reassurance to working class citizens in larger countries.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#187
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more than $14bn to the community, and country Even assuming that's the case (sounds far fetched to me), would that mean they now wouldn't have to pay a fair tax rate?

>pay a fair tax rate? They would, but you have to define "fair" first.

How about 12.5% like all other Irish companies, not 0.005% like they managed to fiddle it down to?

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#188
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European developers don't need to live in areas though, where they have to pay 2 million dollars for a house and they have social security and health care. This lessens your argument.

I live and work in Munich and I have to pay half a million euros for a 25m^2 box. EU is cheaper than US is a fallacy.

That got me googling and I found this gem:

> Today, Munich is Germany’s most expensive city in which to buy property, with asking prices reaching €35,000 per square metre in some exclusive developments, according to Engel & Völkers. The average price per square metre in the city is €7,630, dwarfing the €2,993 in Germany as a whole. [0]

That's wild. In USD per square foot, that's $3,700/sqft, $800/sqft, and $316/sqft respectively. Meanwhile, San Francisco's median is $1,100/sqft, the metro area's is $500/sqft, and california's as a whole is $315/sqft, remarkably close to germany as a whole. America's is $123/sqft.

Thank god for SF salaries (apparently about 150% of munich salaries).

[0] https://www.ft.com/content/9ba4873a-60f3-11e9-9300-0becfc937...

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#189
post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

Apple has been in Ireland since the 1980's. A large fraction of an entire city (Cork) depend on it. It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more than $14bn to the community, and country, in that time. And it's not a figure-head office either, it has assembly lines. Countries aren't all identical. Ireland needs to be allowed tune its economic policies based on what it has to offer. It doesn't have the…

I also think that the solution, if you will, does require to take the idiosyncracies of a country into account.

Many people may no realise this, but this exactly holds for African countries too. As the continent develops, some countries will become certain roleplayers that essentially are already apparent now, for those willing to go and look for it.

South Africa is the financial capital of Africa, and it would do most people here good to emphasise that. It is an entry point into the rest of Africa (despite, or because of even, being the furthest away from Europe) and its long term trajectory is probably going to remain in what I guess we could call facilitation.

If we compare SA to Ireland or Switzerland, again, they are countries that attempt to facilitate development. I think tax needs to be a topic in its own right, and the exact properties of a country is also a topic in its own right.

Luxembourg will always be forced into a niche, and whether that niche is tax based on not depends on the options at their disposal. Wealthy people see tax as an expense just like any other and the onus is on ordinary people to build inherent value rather than simply financial value.

But you need cultural momentum for this. South Africa's niche role is compounded by cultural and African factors and I am first in line of those that want a foundational based economy, rather than a facilitation based one. But you really need the will to work hard and build inherent value. My final point is simply that one can complain about countries that focus on tax (or tax evation) but the real question is: What else are the options. (And I'm sure there are opportunities waiting.)

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#190

Is there any concensus at all on how global corporations _should_ pay tax? These sort of cases illustrate how institutions think they _shouldn't_ handle tax, but it's not clear to me how we apply tax to a globalised economy? It's seems to be a hugely complex issue with many different stakeholders. Where is the nuanced discussion about these issues that falls somewhere between "Corps are evil" and "innovation is vital…

Personally I think they ought to pay any tax that doesn't require an 'unfair' transfer of revenue. Selling your product to at a nonsensical price to an affiliated company in a different country should be considered collusion as far as I'm concerned.

The tricky part is pinning this down in legislation, although viewing it as collusion might make this somewhat easier as there are already laws against collusion and monopolies that you might be able to leverage.

Post reply on HN