The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments • Hacker News Board

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#51

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

bigtechdataeng wrote: post #44

istjohn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go look at the schools in poor Black neighborhoods in Cleveland, Chicago, Boston, Columbus, Detroit, Indianapolis, Cincinnatti. You will find buildings in disrepair, lacking basic things like air conditioning. Last year, Columbus City Schools cancelled classes several days because it was too hot. If you look at teachers' salaries, the city school districts pay significantly less than the surrounding suburbs, while ha…

It could be private funding that makes up the difference. Or that money is spent elsewhere (maybe more counseling, meals, etc) Looking at the conditions externally should not be enough to contradict data, assuming the data exists ave is accurate (I didn’t check).

Looking at the conditions externally should not be enough to contradict data

Data can easily be used to lie or conceal, and if the observed conditions are clearly inferior, then the data is qualitatively inaccurate and/or incomplete.

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#52

Post by lbrito » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

To solve this conundrum, Greeks created their own funding system called antiparochi, in which developers saved themselves the cost of buying land by giving landowners a share of the constructed units when they were completed. “The best translation of the term is probably ‘flats for land,’ or as some people say, ‘quid pro quo,’” says Panos Dragonas, an architect and professor at Greece’s University of Patras. “The system saw landowners hand over their property, and in return get, say, two to five apartments back in the completed building to live in, or rent or sell. It was a bottom-up system of housing development not created by any law change by the government, though the state did offer motives for construction by granting tax breaks.”

I'm surprised to see that this arrangement is mentioned as novel/quaint.

This kind of deal is extremely pervasive here in Brazil, and I suppose in the rest of the world as well: developers don't acquire residential lots with cash; rather they build up an apartment building and pay the original land owner(s) with apartment units. This is so common I assumed it was a worldwide "thing".

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#53

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #29

psds2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States teachers school supplies, equipment for band, gear for sports and other items that contribute directly to the quality of a students education and experience are funded by bake sales, booster clubs and other sources of funding that was not at all accounted for in the article you linked or argument you make. At some schools these programs bring in six figure $ from kids reselling boutique cupcakes…

>band, gear for sports and other items that contribute directly to the quality of a students education and experience You don't fiddle your way out of generations of poverty. Parents like to see their kids do extracurricular activities but technical skills (math, also physics) and communication skills (English) are what people need to succeed in life if they are coming from a background lacking in material wealth. Wh…

There was a pretty good line about this in the John Adams dramatization from HBO:

"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."

(No idea what this website is, it was the first search result I found that had the quotation: https://livingforimprovement.com/two-powerful-life-lessons-f...)

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#54

Post by iguy » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #51

bigtechdataeng wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be private funding that makes up the difference. Or that money is spent elsewhere (maybe more counseling, meals, etc) Looking at the conditions externally should not be enough to contradict data, assuming the data exists ave is accurate (I didn’t check).

Looking at the conditions externally should not be enough to contradict data Data can easily be used to lie or conceal, and if the observed conditions are clearly inferior, then the data is qualitatively inaccurate and/or incomplete.

Seems like a puzzle worth understanding. If the budgets & class sizes are similar, and the teacher salaries are lower in tough schools, then what is the rest spent on?

In some countries I would guess that the budget is being pocketed along the way, but I doubt that's the case here.

Is there sufficient extra off-the-books spending in rich areas to explain the difference? e.g. a volunteer donating to fix the AC? While I'm sure there are anecdotes I'm dubious this could add up to enough.

I thought that in fact teacher salaries were higher in tough schools (and that, when they got sick of it, teachers would take a pay cut to teach in a nice suburb instead) but this was from conversations, and looking for data, it does look like average salaries are higher in rich areas (although for more senior teachers), and class sizes a little smaller, although I haven't dug very deep.

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#55

Post by fennecfoxen » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

lbrito wrote: post #52

To solve this conundrum, Greeks created their own funding system called antiparochi, in which developers saved themselves the cost of buying land by giving landowners a share of the constructed units when they were completed. “The best translation of the term is probably ‘flats for land,’ or as some people say, ‘quid pro quo,’” says Panos Dragonas, an architect and professor at Greece’s University of Patras. “The sys…

I think most people in the US find it more expedient to use cash for the land, rather than take in-kind compensation. Consider, for instance: where will you live while your apartment is under construction? And, can you actually trust the value that the developer touts, attached to the new apartment? Financing for this sort of up-front buyout will be readily available so there is no major barrier.

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#56

Post by Someone » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

metabagel wrote: post #34

arethuza wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"all cities look the same" Except, of course, for the one that has as a centrepiece a huge old fortress (still used by the local military) on the plug on an ancient volcano. ;-)

Which city is that?

Edinburgh? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Castle#Geology)

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#57

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

bawana wrote: post #47

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #7

That's where I grew up - amid the polykatoikies! It's very strange to see such a positive view of Athens. I mean, growing up, I can't remember anyone ever having a good thing to say about our own homes. Looking down from Lycabetus hill, Athens -rather the entire Attican basin from Penteli to Piraeus and from Parnitha to Hymmetus- looks covered with gray, frayed, books or document binders, or perhaps a mille-feuille w…

@ YeGoblynQueenne Although I am in the US, my Greek heritage dragged me back to Athens every summer. For me it was a magical place where I spoke another language, drank funny tasting Tamtam instead of coke, traveled in blue colored busses crammed with people, women with unshaven armpits, the smell of bodies and tobacco, the taste of bougatsa the morning and souvlaki in the evening, the interminable afternoon nap that…

Thanks for this, your account is moving. Despite my moaning about it, Athens can be a magical place and I spent some of my best years there- not just because I've spent most of my life there (I also lived in Corfu for a long time) (which is just a whole 'nother kind of magickal). I guess, one needs to see Athens with fresh eyes, not the eyes of someone who grew up in Athens, to appreciate it best, as something new.

And just to set the record straight- there are many "geitonies" (neighbourhoods) in Athens, places with parks and cafes and communal spaces right next to peoples' homes, like the article says it and as you hint at it. And when it's hot and everyone is outside, mingling, you do get this feeling of people living their lives all together. Finally, most of the "proasteia" (the suburbs, although Athens is now one big conurbation and there's no real demarcation) have always taken care to maintain as much greenery as possible, exactly to offset the grey concrete. That makes it a little better.

And like I say in my original comment, the summer evenings are magic. The temperature falls a little to just bearable levels of warm and the smooth light makes everything seem sweeter, nicer, calmer, prettier - familiar, to me anyway. Athens is, after all, the only place in the world I can truly call "home".

(though, home is were .bashrc is...)

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#58

Post by lbrito » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #55

lbrito wrote: post #52

To solve this conundrum, Greeks created their own funding system called antiparochi, in which developers saved themselves the cost of buying land by giving landowners a share of the constructed units when they were completed. “The best translation of the term is probably ‘flats for land,’ or as some people say, ‘quid pro quo,’” says Panos Dragonas, an architect and professor at Greece’s University of Patras. “The sys…

I think most people in the US find it more expedient to use cash for the land, rather than take in-kind compensation. Consider, for instance: where will you live while your apartment is under construction? And, can you actually trust the value that the developer touts, attached to the new apartment? Financing for this sort of up-front buyout will be readily available so there is no major barrier.

>where will you live while your apartment is under construction?

Maybe my wording was confusing, but this kind of thing won't really happen. If someone in a large city owns a patch of land that is big enough and well-located enough to become an apartment complex, then that person(s) is usually wealthy enough to have other real estate already. Its seen as an investment, not as a more affordable way to own an apartment.

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#59

Post by csomar » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

lbrito wrote: post #52

To solve this conundrum, Greeks created their own funding system called antiparochi, in which developers saved themselves the cost of buying land by giving landowners a share of the constructed units when they were completed. “The best translation of the term is probably ‘flats for land,’ or as some people say, ‘quid pro quo,’” says Panos Dragonas, an architect and professor at Greece’s University of Patras. “The sys…

Where I live it's more extreme. Construction materials are sourced from different suppliers, and they are given apartments instead of cash. A developer can get started with around an apartment worth of capital. He'll leverage 2-3x through a bank to pay for workers and various. Then raise money before building from some want-to-be homeowners. The pre-construction sale gets you a cheaper price. So he gets 2-3x his capital, whatever he raised from future owners, and free construction materials. If he plays his cards correctly and do sell all of the building, he can 4-5x his money in a 3 years period.

I had a relative in this kinda business and most of his job was "building connections" and "deal striking".

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#60

Post by csomar » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #55

lbrito wrote: post #52

To solve this conundrum, Greeks created their own funding system called antiparochi, in which developers saved themselves the cost of buying land by giving landowners a share of the constructed units when they were completed. “The best translation of the term is probably ‘flats for land,’ or as some people say, ‘quid pro quo,’” says Panos Dragonas, an architect and professor at Greece’s University of Patras. “The sys…

I think most people in the US find it more expedient to use cash for the land, rather than take in-kind compensation. Consider, for instance: where will you live while your apartment is under construction? And, can you actually trust the value that the developer touts, attached to the new apartment? Financing for this sort of up-front buyout will be readily available so there is no major barrier.

Credit is insanely available in the US. Developers can get a significant loan; which is a better deal than channeling your apartment through such a scheme (assuming selling is easy).