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The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

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Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#41

Post by istjohn »

bobcostas55 wrote: post #19
istjohn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That part jumped out at me, too. > “There were wealthier people on the upper floors,” says Dragonas, “people who had just arrived from the countryside further down and poor students in the basement. That sort of vertical stratification inside a five-story building helped Athens to avoid horizontal stratification — there weren’t really neighborhoods that were only rich or only poor. In the US before Brown v. Board, ma…

>In many states, the vast majority of school funding comes from property taxes. So schools in wealthy neighborhoods are better funded than schools in poor neighborhoods, and this guarantees homes in wealthy school districts maintain their value since everyone wants their kids in those schools. In the US, school funding is (on average) progressive because federal and state funding more than offsets any local inequalit…

Go look at the schools in poor Black neighborhoods in Cleveland, Chicago, Boston, Columbus, Detroit, Indianapolis, Cincinnatti. You will find buildings in disrepair, lacking basic things like air conditioning. Last year, Columbus City Schools cancelled classes several days because it was too hot. If you look at teachers' salaries, the city school districts pay significantly less than the surrounding suburbs, while having higher student/teacher ratios and a disproportionate number of students with Individualized Education Plans, that are English-learners, or that have other unique challenges to overcome. Standardized testing shows these schools, as one migh expect, have far poorer learning outcomes for their students, as well.

I can't tell you why your numbers appear to show otherwise, but anyone can easily verify that there is an enormous disparity between the quality of schools attended by residents of poor--often mostly Black--school districts and that attended by residents of wealthier--typically whiter--school districts.

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#42

Post by jungturk »

bluGill wrote: post #39
istjohn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That part jumped out at me, too. > “There were wealthier people on the upper floors,” says Dragonas, “people who had just arrived from the countryside further down and poor students in the basement. That sort of vertical stratification inside a five-story building helped Athens to avoid horizontal stratification — there weren’t really neighborhoods that were only rich or only poor. In the US before Brown v. Board, ma…

White flight wasn't only because of fear of blacks. That was an issue, but suburbs were in style and offered other benefits. Most people left for other reasons if they could. This is that couldn't afford to leave were poor. Often enough they were black as well. Remember even a tiny minority acting in a bad direction can make the whole that way. Don't descend too far into racism to explain a complex situation.

These are certainly multi-factor situations, as you say, but white flight isn't the only race-related contributor to deteriorating home prices in predominantly non-white neighborhoods.

For example, the impact of federal policies denying mortgage loans in non-white neighborhoods in the 1930s (aka redlining) are still detectable today. If your pool of buyers is lower (because of the lack of availability of a loan program) its reasonable to expect the prices would represent that, and if your prices are growing more slowly that non-redlined neighborhoods, its reasonable to expect prospective buyers could be concerned about investing in those homes.

We don't have to meander too far from the facts to see this as racism (assuming we take racism to mean the promotion of white dominance using institutional power).

https://www.governing.com/topics/transportation-infrastructu...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#43

Post by iguy »

psds2 wrote: post #32
iguy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know of any systematic figures on such things? A six-figure bake sale (if I grant that it happened) is probably 1% of the school's budget (at a school of 1000 in CA, or 500 in NY). I always thought such things existed more as social occasions for parents to get to know teachers and v-v, in a more co-operative context than parent-teacher evenings.

Here is an article I found by The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/11/pta-fu... "PTA at a well-off school might raise a million dollars or more to pay for additional teachers’ salaries, band or orchestra instruments, a new library, iPads for classrooms, field trips, or other initiatives." "I later learned that most of the shiny extras (and even some full-time aides and specialty subject tea…

Thanks. If I was going to pick the location for the craziest such local contrast, I would for sure pick NYC.

But it would be interesting to know if there are more systematic figures anywhere, that apply to cities not containing Wall Street.

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#44

Post by bigtechdataeng »

istjohn wrote: post #41
bobcostas55 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In many states, the vast majority of school funding comes from property taxes. So schools in wealthy neighborhoods are better funded than schools in poor neighborhoods, and this guarantees homes in wealthy school districts maintain their value since everyone wants their kids in those schools. In the US, school funding is (on average) progressive because federal and state funding more than offsets any local inequalit…

Go look at the schools in poor Black neighborhoods in Cleveland, Chicago, Boston, Columbus, Detroit, Indianapolis, Cincinnatti. You will find buildings in disrepair, lacking basic things like air conditioning. Last year, Columbus City Schools cancelled classes several days because it was too hot. If you look at teachers' salaries, the city school districts pay significantly less than the surrounding suburbs, while ha…

It could be private funding that makes up the difference. Or that money is spent elsewhere (maybe more counseling, meals, etc)

Looking at the conditions externally should not be enough to contradict data, assuming the data exists ave is accurate (I didn’t check).

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#45

Post by bigtechdataeng »

psds2 wrote: post #32
iguy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know of any systematic figures on such things? A six-figure bake sale (if I grant that it happened) is probably 1% of the school's budget (at a school of 1000 in CA, or 500 in NY). I always thought such things existed more as social occasions for parents to get to know teachers and v-v, in a more co-operative context than parent-teacher evenings.

Here is an article I found by The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/11/pta-fu... "PTA at a well-off school might raise a million dollars or more to pay for additional teachers’ salaries, band or orchestra instruments, a new library, iPads for classrooms, field trips, or other initiatives." "I later learned that most of the shiny extras (and even some full-time aides and specialty subject tea…

That doesn’t say anything about a Uber style bake sale lose money on every order scheme. PTAs accept donations.

I agree with your overall premise, there was no need to make up a story around it.

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#46

Post by yagodragon »

erfgh wrote: post #26

Athens is an extremely ugly city. It's so ugly that, if you grow up there or live there long enough, the ugliness slowly seeps inside of you and empties your inside, too. Everything looks as if beauty has no role to play in our lives. The ugliness is not confined to the buildings, people dress in ugly clothes and are poorly groomed and rude. Working for a Greek employer is hell. People hate working and all the time t…

Have you ever lived on a different country? Despite it's ugliness, Athens is a vibrant and diverse city that never sleeps. Everything you need to do is close to your home. Jobs, night life, shops, bookstores, etc even a walk by the sea near mikrolimano. It's an interconnected community of human randomness that depicts the randomess of the real life.

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#47

Post by bawana »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #7

That's where I grew up - amid the polykatoikies! It's very strange to see such a positive view of Athens. I mean, growing up, I can't remember anyone ever having a good thing to say about our own homes. Looking down from Lycabetus hill, Athens -rather the entire Attican basin from Penteli to Piraeus and from Parnitha to Hymmetus- looks covered with gray, frayed, books or document binders, or perhaps a mille-feuille w…

@ YeGoblynQueenne Although I am in the US, my Greek heritage dragged me back to Athens every summer. For me it was a magical place where I spoke another language, drank funny tasting Tamtam instead of coke, traveled in blue colored busses crammed with people, women with unshaven armpits, the smell of bodies and tobacco, the taste of bougatsa the morning and souvlaki in the evening, the interminable afternoon nap that I could not bear, the lukewarm transparent sea lapping at sandy beaches. In New Smyrna, I stayed with my grandparents and learned to live with other people in the same building. It made living in a dorm later at university less strange. But the most memorable thing about the apartment buildings was that every one was different, unique - like people. At home I lived in a suburb - thousands of copies of the same houses that came in 1 of 4 styles. I was an anonymous child in both places but the home in Greece was less lonely. And there I could walk everywhere but here my mother would have to drive me. That part of discovering the 'world' was more real for me in Greece - being in the town , walking to the market, stopping in the town's central plaza for an orange juice while sitting under a tree. The 'data' I gathered felt more impactful - the closest I felt to that was later in high school when I went to NYC for an event or in college when I went to events in Boston. Today, I think we as Americans would benefit by compulsory time abroad in high school and college. If our government required and paid for all high school students and college students to go abroad for some time at 'world school' , it would cure us of the xenophobia that we see in our leader today who plucks at those anxieties in us, like picking at a wound. For me, Greece was a blessing.

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#48

Post by [deleted] »

bigtechdataeng wrote: post #44
istjohn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go look at the schools in poor Black neighborhoods in Cleveland, Chicago, Boston, Columbus, Detroit, Indianapolis, Cincinnatti. You will find buildings in disrepair, lacking basic things like air conditioning. Last year, Columbus City Schools cancelled classes several days because it was too hot. If you look at teachers' salaries, the city school districts pay significantly less than the surrounding suburbs, while ha…

It could be private funding that makes up the difference. Or that money is spent elsewhere (maybe more counseling, meals, etc) Looking at the conditions externally should not be enough to contradict data, assuming the data exists ave is accurate (I didn’t check).

[deleted]

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#49

Post by zip1234 »

bluGill wrote: post #39
istjohn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That part jumped out at me, too. > “There were wealthier people on the upper floors,” says Dragonas, “people who had just arrived from the countryside further down and poor students in the basement. That sort of vertical stratification inside a five-story building helped Athens to avoid horizontal stratification — there weren’t really neighborhoods that were only rich or only poor. In the US before Brown v. Board, ma…

White flight wasn't only because of fear of blacks. That was an issue, but suburbs were in style and offered other benefits. Most people left for other reasons if they could. This is that couldn't afford to leave were poor. Often enough they were black as well. Remember even a tiny minority acting in a bad direction can make the whole that way. Don't descend too far into racism to explain a complex situation.

Some of the first zoning in the US was race-based.

Re: The accidentally resilient design of Athens apartments

#50

Post by zip1234 »

istjohn wrote: post #12
psds2 wrote: post #4

The part of the article that mentioned vertical stratification to avoid horizontal stratification hit a chord with me. I personally come from a family of great means but due to unique circumstances spent much of my childhood living in low income areas and having friends whose parents worked fast food jobs. I think it's the best thing that ever happened to me and I think we would have a better society if more people h…

That part jumped out at me, too. > “There were wealthier people on the upper floors,” says Dragonas, “people who had just arrived from the countryside further down and poor students in the basement. That sort of vertical stratification inside a five-story building helped Athens to avoid horizontal stratification — there weren’t really neighborhoods that were only rich or only poor. In the US before Brown v. Board, ma…

The current system zoning still reinforces racial and socioeconomic division. Wealthy neighborhoods keep out less wealthy people by only allowing certain types of housing (more expensive housing).
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