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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

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Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#201

Post by nunoonun »

traveler01 wrote: post #116
logicchains wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US experienced massive growth in the 50s and 60s while having very high tax rates. The effective rate actually paid by the top 1% was around 42%, which is not much higher than now: https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/ . . The US had also emerged as pretty much the only unbombed industrial country after a global war, giving it a significant advantage. >so thoroughly debunked by now Debunked…

These people should look at Portugal. One of the highest taxers in Europe and our economy is crap. The middle class is basically paying for the rich and poor and they don't have money to spend on the economy. We can't support our companies because their products are actually more expensive than outside products (companies pay a lot of taxes too). It's more than known by every good economist that overtaxing isn't good…

afaik Portugal is on par with the EU average on income tax and slightly above corporate tax. Of course because of the low average wage it the high bands of taxing start much earlier than the rest of the countries. But lowering taxes does not increase wages, companies will always adapt to pay the least possible and if the wages are lower they will just pay less.

And in all the countries the middle class pays for the rich and poor... unfortunately.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#202

Post by ksec »

tjoff wrote: post #153
raxxorrax wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well true, it would be unfair to put them all in one basket. But still, there is little use complaining about Apple (I don't usually hold back criticism here). We should hold those responsible creating these laws.

Disagree. I don't think complaining will change apples way but they sure deserve the negative publicity. If apple wants to be an asshole we should treat apple as one.

That is perfectly fine too.

But you will have to be fair and treat all those doing the same as asshole. Which is pretty much ALL MNC.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#203

Post by rusk »

ksec wrote: post #200
soneil wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all gets terribly murky very quickly. For example, we often claim one of our strengths is that we have a highly educated workforce - but this is circular; people take this path because they know there's good work at the other end of it. If we ripped out those MNCs, that highly educated workforce would vanish quicker than you can say J1. There are other benefits to being in Ireland. We have a common-law legal syste…

>(or perhaps the only factory outside the US?) The only one I know is in US making Mac Pro. Interesting, what else is assembled in Cork ? If I buy an iMac in UK, would it be assembled in Cork? Why is a plant in Cork entry to EUR? Couldn't those be shipped from China? ( Considering this is Apple related I cant be the only keep reading Cork as Cook XD )

What you have to realise about Ireland is that “ripening bananas” is considered an industry and is protected for tax purposes. You can be doing any idiot job and it becomes a vehicle for tax optimisation. Kind of makes it tough for tech people socially here cause a lot of people assume you’re on a scam or a useful idiot for somebody else’s scam

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#204

Post by rusk »

robertlagrant wrote: post #11
dylkil wrote: post #5

Irish media spinning this as a win for the irish people, while there are ongoing talks of increasing income tax on normal people to help cover the cost of this pandemic. Disgraceful.

Apple is ultimately normal people as well, either buying from them or working for them.

Really? Can I write off depreciation of my assets (car, house etc) against tax?

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#205

Post by balfirevic »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #109
myspy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European developers don't need to live in areas though, where they have to pay 2 million dollars for a house and they have social security and health care. This lessens your argument.

Social security and healthcare is definitely awesome, but have you checked house prices near big German cities like Munich? They're much closer to Bay Area prices while salaries are very far away. Europeans who keep tooting that "we don't need US salaries" tend to be the more privileged ones who will also inherit a house from their boomer parents and take it for granted, so they don't feel the stress of the rat race…

> while in most of Europe(except the East) it does not.

Wait, something doesn't add up here. I see many programmers migrating from eastern to western Europe, but not the other way around.

It is true that programming as a profession will offer comparatively higher standard of living in eastern Europe (when compared to other professions), but that's because the overall standard of living is lower than it is in the west.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#206

Post by rusk »

joelennon wrote: post #83
csunbird wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, the working people in Germany are paying 20 percent to 35 percent income taxes in their salaries.

Working people in Ireland also pay high taxes on their income. In Ireland you pay 20% income tax on the first €35,300, and 40% on income above this amount (if you are a single person, there are different cut-offs for married people and one-parent families). You also pay an additional Universal Social Charge on all income over €13,000 - between 2-8% depending on your income level, or 11% for self-employed income over…

Don’t forget the ridiculous property prices and rapacious rental market. The skyrocketing unchecked insurance costs and the 25% VAT and the total of 33% tax on cars (VAT + questionably legal VRT). Ireland is only a low tax economy if you don’t live here.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#207

Post by m12k »

labcomputer wrote: post #174
m12k wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US had also emerged as pretty much the only unbombed industrial country after a global war, giving it a significant advantage Ding-ding-ding - you hit the nail on the head! The US' competitive advantage and special position in the world, including all those fortune 500 companies, doesn't come from its special adherence to laissez-faire capitalism, it comes from other historic advantages. The supply-side trickle…

> Ding-ding-ding - you hit the nail on the head! Meta-comment: I find this style of argument (make one claim, have the claim debunked, make a different claim and say "see I was right") to be very annoying, and I wouldn't mind if it disappeared from HN.

You know what - I agree, the tone here on HN is important to me, and I'll try to do better in the future. In my defense, the comment I was replying to had linked to a bad-faith site claiming the tax rate of the wealthy in the US has not gone down since the 50's, which is only true if you don't count the massive number of loopholes that have been introduced over the years - the effective tax has gone way, way down (Warren Buffett even commented on this a few years ago, how he was being taxed at a lower tax rate than his secretary). That, combined with the way they simultaneously presented what I perceived as a counter-argument to their own previous comment, caused me to jump on that instead, and probably sounded a bit smarmy in the process - I'm sorry for that. FWIW, here's a source for the effective tax rate of the wealthy, which I probably should have linked to instead: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/06/opinion/incom...

I will very happily argue for any of the points I've made, and I promise not to change topics and stay with a single point as long as is needed.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#208

Post by tw04 »

logicchains wrote: post #38
m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

>Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. An alternative interpretation is that the high degree of taxes and regulations in Europe…

Globalization has broken the social contract. You've got countless companies that truly "form" in western countries with high standards of living - the founders and leaders all reside there. But then they offshore their profits to keep more for themselves, draining that western economy and creating an unsustainable funnel of money.

The problem isn't taxes, the problem is founders who believe they are above the social contract. They want the benefits of a highly stable society with high taxes and high standards of living, but they don't want to pay their share of keeping that system alive.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#209

Post by m12k »

tw04 wrote: post #208
logicchains wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. An alternative interpretation is that the high degree of taxes and regulations in Europe…

Globalization has broken the social contract. You've got countless companies that truly "form" in western countries with high standards of living - the founders and leaders all reside there. But then they offshore their profits to keep more for themselves, draining that western economy and creating an unsustainable funnel of money. The problem isn't taxes, the problem is founders who believe they are above the social…

The problem is exactly taxes and tax laws. These founders live in a society where if you structure your company one way, you pay 21% in corporate tax, and if you structure it another way you pay 0%, and both are legal - which one do you think they will choose? We need to make profit shifting illegal, but it currently isn't. We can't count on founders being 'ethical' enough to not play the game optimally, we need to change the rules of the game, so optimal play from them isn't bad for the rest of us.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#210

Post by mapleshamrock »

danhanlon wrote: post #196
soneil wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all gets terribly murky very quickly. For example, we often claim one of our strengths is that we have a highly educated workforce - but this is circular; people take this path because they know there's good work at the other end of it. If we ripped out those MNCs, that highly educated workforce would vanish quicker than you can say J1. There are other benefits to being in Ireland. We have a common-law legal syste…

Yeah I think you're spot on with everything. I think some change in direction is needed for the long term but it's something we are not really seeing which is concerning. The well known MNCs seem to be here largely in an operational capacity, the majority of their workforce would be something like trust/risk/support/finance/sales. In terms of "R&D" and "innovation", work that develops the products and services that a…

I'd largely disagree. There's a huge amount of R&D and Engineering work being done in Ireland.

On the hardware side Intel, Qualcomm, Huawei, HP, Analog Devices, Xilinx, Nokia Bell Labs and many more all have extensive R&D departments in Ireland.

On the software side, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, Google etc. all have engineering roles advertised currently on Linkedin.

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