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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

bbc.com

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Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#151

Post by m12k »

DeonPenny wrote: post #138
m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

Honestly at first glance this seems right. But this argument has been made so much, in so many place, and ended in failure so frequently why don't we think of something different. Hopefully less dependent on government evolvement. The idea that you can vote or tax this problem away seems misguided at a certain point.

I don't think anyone's really tried to solve this yet - can you reference any actual attempts? Also, if we need to fix a problem where companies are exploiting their access to a common resource (the purchasing power of the middle class in a given country) without paying to maintain that resource - how would we ever fix that without involving the only entity with the power and mandate to block the companies' access or charge them more for it, the government?

I think the biggest hindrance here is that transfer pricing is a complicated issue, that most voters don't understand the mechanics of, so there's not been a lot of pressure on politicians to solve it. It's been much easier to just lay the blame on immigrants or whatever, than to actually attack the root cause of the issue.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#152

Post by anonymousDan »

m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

There is zero chance they will win this on appeal. Vestager should be booted out of her job for this ridiculous waste of taxpayers money. I said at the time on here a few years ago that this was a power grab by the EU commission. The fundamental problem is the US allows its corporations to undercut local competition by 'deferring' their tax payments, then parking their cash offshore and applying political pressure for tax amnesties. One possible solution could be for the EU to apply some minimum tax level against which any US tax payments can be counted, but if there is a shortfall because of deferral tricks the delta gets paid at source.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#153

Post by tjoff »

raxxorrax wrote: post #105
tjoff wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding moral companies that doesn't do unethical things to avoid tax is not hard. I'd claim that the absolute vast majority don't.

Well true, it would be unfair to put them all in one basket. But still, there is little use complaining about Apple (I don't usually hold back criticism here). We should hold those responsible creating these laws.

Disagree. I don't think complaining will change apples way but they sure deserve the negative publicity.

If apple wants to be an asshole we should treat apple as one.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#154

Post by secondcoming »

m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

Apple has been in Ireland since the 1980's. A large fraction of an entire city (Cork) depend on it. It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more than $14bn to the community, and country, in that time. And it's not a figure-head office either, it has assembly lines.

Countries aren't all identical. Ireland needs to be allowed tune its economic policies based on what it has to offer. It doesn't have the population of France, or the location of Germany. It has english speakers and a reasonably well educated workforce, two factors that aren't unique to it. A low corporation tax policy counts for a lot.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#155

Post by apta »

aosaigh wrote: post #140

Is there any concensus at all on how global corporations _should_ pay tax? These sort of cases illustrate how institutions think they _shouldn't_ handle tax, but it's not clear to me how we apply tax to a globalised economy? It's seems to be a hugely complex issue with many different stakeholders. Where is the nuanced discussion about these issues that falls somewhere between "Corps are evil" and "innovation is vital…

Why should corporations pay even more tax? They're paying salaries, which are subject to income tax, and stock gains are also taxed when sold. Also, any sales they generate are subject to VAT/sales tax. Not to mention property taxes for their offices, etc.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#157

Post by m12k »

627467 wrote: post #114

> "This case was not about how much tax we pay, but where we are required to pay it," Apple said in a statement. We have come to accept that certain tax payers (ie. corporate or well lawyered individuals) can chose where their revenue should be taxed. It think it has become obvious that this freedom distorts the spirit of taxation in most (all?) countries. I think it is fair to prevent double taxation across countrie…

The problem is that the current system for international taxation of trade among daughter companies was devised during a time when international trade consisted of things like bars of steel, for which there is a well-defined daily market price, so it's easy to audit and prevent companies from profit-shifting to avoid taxes. Today, daughter companies trade things like 'the Google search algorithm' and 'the Nestle brand' - IP, which by definition is unique, so no market price exists, so auditing it is impossible, making it a free-for-all for multinationals to get taxed wherever they want.

There are proposals for updated international taxation rules to prevent this issue - for example this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formulary_apportionment The problem is to get the OECD to agree on updating this.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#158

Post by apta »

andrewstuart wrote: post #33

Here's what big tech companies don't pay their fair share of: * defence * education * infrastructure * health * etc But our political systems are so corrupt there's nothing can be done about it because they just line the pockets of the political parties who in turn make sure they never have to pay their fair share.

Why are you constraining it to "big tech"? All large companies in all fields want to avoid paying tax as much as possible.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#160

Post by aosaigh »

apta wrote: post #155
aosaigh wrote: post #140

Is there any concensus at all on how global corporations _should_ pay tax? These sort of cases illustrate how institutions think they _shouldn't_ handle tax, but it's not clear to me how we apply tax to a globalised economy? It's seems to be a hugely complex issue with many different stakeholders. Where is the nuanced discussion about these issues that falls somewhere between "Corps are evil" and "innovation is vital…

Why should corporations pay even more tax? They're paying salaries, which are subject to income tax, and stock gains are also taxed when sold. Also, any sales they generate are subject to VAT/sales tax. Not to mention property taxes for their offices, etc.

Is this related to my original comment or a different one? I agree with this by the way, I think that it's definitely a part of the discussion.
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