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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

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Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#91
I'm not surprised by this. The European Commission's original decision was based on a technicality related to the fact that Apple did not use the "classic" double-Irish arrangement when setting up their companies in Ireland, but instead used two branches of the same company. If Apple had set up the double-Irish with two separate companies (like most other multinationals), there would have been no question that what they were doing was perfectly allowed under Irish and EU law.

I was always skeptical that this decision would stand up under appeal, since the argument that they received a special benefit from these tax rulings (relative to other multinationals) never made much sense. They were actually worse off under this arrangement than they would have been if they had just done the proper double-Irish in the first place, like Google and Microsoft and everyone else.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#92
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

16%. Niiiice.

Add sales taxes on their products, payroll taxes on their employees, capital gain taxes on the dividends they issue.... and Apple is generating much more than 16% of their profits in government revenue vs. a world where Tim Cook closes up shop tomorrow.

> Add sales taxes on their products, payroll taxes on their employees

these taxes are not taxes on apple (the company). They do not count towards a company's taxes paid.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The commission isn't all powerful. There are different national interests in Europe and all countries have a veto on such matters I believe

> all countries have a veto on such matters I believe In most cases, a veto can't happen unless the following conditions are met: 1) Less than 55% of total Member States (less than 15) voting AND 2) The voting Member States represent less than 65% of the total EU population AND (assuming at least one of the conditions above aren't met) 3) At least four countries vote to block the measure OR (if not all countries are…

The rules you quote do not apply to matters of taxation, I believe which is a power reserved to national governments.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#94
post #77

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The US experienced massive growth in the 50s and 60s while having very high tax rates. The US, until recently had a higher corporate tax rate than many European country - the latest US tax cuts brought it down to the same 21% that my native Denmark has. I'm sorry, but this 'deregulation and low taxes will fix everything' myth has been so thoroughly debunked by now that I'm sad to see it rearing its ugly head in an ot…

>The US experienced massive growth in the 50s and 60s while having very high tax rates. The effective rate actually paid by the top 1% was around 42%, which is not much higher than now: https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/ . . The US had also emerged as pretty much the only unbombed industrial country after a global war, giving it a significant advantage. >so thoroughly debunked by now Debunked…

> The US had also emerged as pretty much the only unbombed industrial country after a global war, giving it a significant advantage

Ding-ding-ding - you hit the nail on the head! The US' competitive advantage and special position in the world, including all those fortune 500 companies, doesn't come from its special adherence to laissez-faire capitalism, it comes from other historic advantages. The supply-side trickle-down cult didn't start until the 70's and incidentally real median purchasing power in the US has been in decline ever since.

> Debunked where? Here's a random paper I found

Here's a very non-random book I found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Ce...

Also, do I really need to remind you that correlation is not the same as causation?

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say that someone who finds a way to murder someone within the law isn't at fault in that murder? You're simply playing a game of semantics, they're still culpable of tax evasion, just not legally culpable. Just because Apple have found a way to avoid tax, doesn't mean it's not their fault. You might find some idiots who argue there's a shareholder requirement, but that's not the law either.

I just compiled a list with companies paying more tax willingly: If companies were allowed to murder people, I would feel staunchly more endangered.... but seriously, Ireland has lash tax laws to lure these giants into their country, this is no secret, we have several countries within the EU engaging in similar strategies. I didn't say that the amount of taxes Apple pays isn't morally questionable. But you would stil…

Finding moral companies that doesn't do unethical things to avoid tax is not hard.

I'd claim that the absolute vast majority don't.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#96
post #87

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>Given a fixed amount of resources People don't consume resources, they consume goods and services. The IPhone is valued at a much higher price than the sum of raw resource components it contains. Economic growth is what allows us to increase the amount of goods and services people can consume from a given set of resources. Economic growth is why a single farmer with modern equipment can produce more food than a hund…

Using resources as a blanket term to describe goods and services as fungible with a market that can trade them, it's probably a better descriptor of available goods and services that can be consumed instead of the fluctuating cost of said goods and services. True we could produce more goods than we have before with a lower cost, but it isn't true that this enables us to provide more to those without means as this wou…

> Given unequal societies, economic growth ... serve to increase inequality

that's not true. Especially if you view it from the angle of absolute poverty.

I wouldn't care that Bezos has another bazillion dollars due to economic growth - because with said growth comes more economic opportunities for the poor. Where once they had no economic value, there could be from being an amazon deliverer.

Where once there was no economic value as a subsistence farmer, the outsourcing of labour has generated economic value for underdeveloped nations. SO much so that China is now threatening the hegemony of the USA!

Economic growth lifts all.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#97
post #65

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>What are the benefits of a fortune 500? Who are the beneficiaries? The main ones would be investors and management, including a subset of employees. Workers are also a pretty big beneficiary: look how well workers at recent Fortune 500 entries like FAANG are paid. Even after accounting for subsidised health and education benefits the average European developer is still lucky to earn even half of what the average US…

European developers don't need to live in areas though, where they have to pay 2 million dollars for a house and they have social security and health care. This lessens your argument.

US developers don't have to live in those areas either, to still earn significantly more than EU developers earn.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#98
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who are the beneficiaries? Literally any entity they interact with. And F500's interact a lot with a lot of entities!

As long as there is shareholder before stakeholder, I don't see this as a good argument. Take Amazon. Employees in warehouses are low wage and hire and fire jobs. The CEO is getting richer and richer, not everyone is profiting as well as it could be. What Europe would need is to excel in computer science as well as design and engineering. The topic is pretty lacking here and would need a push. The result would be com…

> Employees in warehouses are low wage and hire and fire jobs. The CEO is getting richer and richer, not everyone is profiting as well as it could be.

same old argument that marx has - that capital ownership (and by extension, capitalism) is the cause for such inequality.

I personally don't think all inequality is the same, and inequality is what drives people. There's a reason why communism, and their strive for equality, has so far failed as a form of governance, and as a form of market economy.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#99
post #30
post #22

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It's paid in the US. The EU is mad that they aren't getting it and have been targeting American companies for atleast 5 years. This lawyer also has one of the worst success records in these types of cases.

It wasn't paid in the US. The purpose of the scheme that Apple (and other companies) were using was to protect profits from US taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

Yes, it was. Their arrangement only helped them defer US taxes, but the taxes were paid when the money was repatriated.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-to-pay-38-billion-in-repa...

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#100
post #73
post #67

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Indeed - tax the little man from all angles, not the big corporation.

Taxing the little man vs the big man is not Apple’s decision. Talk to your senator about that.

They did choose to move to a tax haven though, while still going out of their way to to market themselves as being from California. It sucks they want to reap the benefits of being an American company without sowing their share.
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